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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lasers
    Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 1:39pm
https://www.laserperformance.global/pages/50_years_laser
Robert
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Forensic evaluation of a LP Laser would help, anyone actually seen one? can't see how they can knock three grands worth of quality out of the boat, unless parts are all sourced from the East, still using ice blue colour, needs a LP whistle blower to spill the beans.

They can lose some costs like providing a fleet to a championships, the cost of endless meetings with WS etc, but I can't see they are going to make much money at £4k retail. You need to shift a lot of units to keep the costs down. I've worked for a few manufacturing firms selling hundreds to hundreds of thousands of units a year, the cost of actually making the product materials and factory labour isn't half of it.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

I think Ovi is a good builder, but I can’t see them getting a “better “ boat than LP. If they are working to the build manual as LP were doing they will get about the same. The spec on resin /fibre ratio will have been set and won’t be too tough for anyone to achieve.The reinforcements are all specified and quite low cost . If Ovi was to drive the resin content down by taking more “care” what would they do then? Slop a lot of resin into the bottom-I don’t think so. Lasers have not really suffered much from structural failures so the basic spec and detailing was fine with LP And the business of getting the mast rake right-well that’s not difficult with a simple jig. ( just to say I have no relationship with LP at all!)

I think Ovi will get a more consistent boat than some Lasers have been in the past.All closer to the minimum weight, all with close tolerance of mast rake, all the hulls and decks joined consistently.
I've seen old pictures of Lasers with different curvature of the hull around the dagger board slot. Boats out of the same mould but stuck together differently. Maybe in the old days they were flogging so many that some came out of  the mould too soon. GRP in the old days could be pretty gung ho, these days resins have improved, H&S matters, people work differently. So there's possibly quite a difference between you new £4k Laser and what you might have bought 30 years ago.
It's what we expect these days. Top Laser sailors have often said that one new Laser 'feels different to another'. These days that kind of variation should be reduced. With any one design class people go a bit OTT about the smallest difference of course.
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Oatsandbeans View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 12:29pm
I think Ovi is a good builder, but I can’t see them getting a “better “ boat than LP. If they are working to the build manual as LP were doing they will get about the same. The spec on resin /fibre ratio will have been set and won’t be too tough for anyone to achieve.The reinforcements are all specified and quite low cost . If Ovi was to drive the resin content down by taking more “care” what would they do then? Slop a lot of resin into the bottom-I don’t think so. Lasers have not really suffered much from structural failures so the basic spec and detailing was fine with LP And the business of getting the mast rake right-well that’s not difficult with a simple jig. ( just to say I have no relationship with LP at all!)
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 12:21pm
I agree.


Cant see the Laser/ILCA being replaced anytime soon.

The Aero isn't different enough, sufficiently quicker etc to offer anything new to the Olympics.

The Laser/ILCA will probably uprate things gradually (all carbon spars etc). Its amazing that it can still look quite modern (although so can the OK, Finn etc in their own way I guess).

With its short length and beach boat style high boom the Aero is also a lot less aesthetically pleasing IMO.

When you add in the lack of numbers worldwide its not even an argument really.



Edited by rich96 - 04 Feb 22 at 12:22pm
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Fatboi View Drop Down
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 11:40am
The Ovi laser costs more because they spend a lot longer making them, control the mast rake with plugs that are used to give consistent mast rake. Resin, cloth, etc are all weighed out before making and a controlled process adds time, plus build in the UK with increased wage rates, etc. 

I think the ILCA is the right boat for the games. When seeing people like Thompson, Wearn sail the aero in the development, it just looked wrong. It looked like a beach boat and their feedback was it just wasnt as good. 

The Laser vs ILCA at club racing - would I care if I sailed in ILCA? No. I would want more boats on the start line and if my club could buy a few boats for people to hire and it gave me more boats on the start line, then great! 
If there was a change to them and they were proven faster, then I may take issue. However right now that is not the case. 
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 11:35am
Originally posted by 423zero

can't see how they can knock three grands worth margin out of the boat,


FTFY and I can.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 11:09am
Forensic evaluation of a LP Laser would help, anyone actually seen one? can't see how they can knock three grands worth of quality out of the boat, unless parts are all sourced from the East, still using ice blue colour, needs a LP whistle blower to spill the beans.

Edited by 423zero - 04 Feb 22 at 11:29am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 10:54am
Originally posted by eric_c

Would I be right in guessing the Club 420s don't pay certain fees to WS or whoever?


They probably don't, but the main reason is that the Club 420 is heavily modified to suit an environment where the colleges select and maintain the boats rather than the students, so Club 420s are heavier, much more rugged and considerably detuned compared to an International 420.

CA and International fees are pretty trivial compared to the cost of a boat. There's a lot of spin from some quarters about designer's royalties, World Sailing fees etc, but it doesn't appear to me well founded when I actually look at the numbers.

Its perhaps appropriate here to note the background of the 'cheap' Laser Performance Lasers. LPs International Lasers were in much the same price bracket as PSJ and PSA International Lasers. However in what to an outsider appeared to be the first public sign of a battle between Class Association and builder Laser Performance (not sure whether LPE Ltd or LP LLC) started selling Lasers without a plaque at a spectacular discount. They claimed that they were able to do this just because there weren't the fees to pay, but the discount they were offering was several times what the fees due to designer, CA and World sailing cost, and its a pretty safe surmise that they were simply slashing their profit margin, presumably to the sort of level mass purchasers like sailing schools were already paying. Superficially similar tactics in other industries have attracted phrases like 'predatory pricing'. One might speculate that LP might have managed to find some cost savings in the build process, but that is pure speculation and I have absolutely no way of knowing one way or the other.



Edited by JimC - 04 Feb 22 at 11:00am
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 22 at 10:02am
In the USofA, they have International 420s and 'Club 420s'.
Club 420s are cheaper, and popular for college racing

Would I be right in guessing the Club 420s don't pay certain fees to WS or whoever?
Is it a similar situation in some ways?.
Maybe the 'Club Laser' will gain traction over there?
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