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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lasers
    Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 10:11am
In my experience, average club sailors very rarely buy new boats. Our problem is the lack of decent secondhand boats. The Ovingtom Laser is great value for anyone who is going to sail it at squad or open meeting level, the cost of owning it for say 3 years will be small compared to spending on travel, entry fees etc. We need to see some of those boats feeding into the used market. If the LP Laser was the only thing on the market, in due course they could up the price to 'what the market will bear' Just as lots of canoe retailers will charge you twice what I paid. The lack of secondhand Lasers is maybe comparable to the used vehicle market at the moment.. we got used to 'the way things are' for decades, then something broke the system.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Demelza

  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? 

The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted.

If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. 

You can’t  have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status.
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:29am
Originally posted by eric_c

In my experience, average club sailors very rarely buy new boats. Our problem is the lack of decent secondhand boats. The Ovingtom Laser is great value for anyone who is going to sail it at squad or open meeting level, the cost of owning it for say 3 years will be small compared to spending on travel, entry fees etc. We need to see some of those boats feeding into the used market. If the LP Laser was the only thing on the market, in due course they could up the price to 'what the market will bear' Just as lots of canoe retailers will charge you twice what I paid. The lack of secondhand Lasers is maybe comparable to the used vehicle market at the moment.. we got used to 'the way things are' for decades, then something broke the system.

Perhaps its just the clubs I visit but the boat park is normally full of Lasers that have not been sailed for years; there must be thousands or perhaps 10s of thousands that were not sailed last year so why do people keep paying club fees rather than sell them on? Never worked that one out
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:45am
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? 

The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted.

If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. 

You can’t  have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status.
I don't think Olympic Class status is the whole picture, the die was pretty much cast last century. Laser built up a massive (by sailing standards) distribution machine, then the market reduced from over 10k boats a year to less than 5k. Most products would have been consigned to the skip of history sometime shortly after.
Maybe without olympic status the wheels would have come off a few years sooner? Who knows? At least the Laser saved some other class from the Olympic farce?

'The issue' here is that most of the people who 'have an issue' with the situtation are not the people putting their credit cards on the line to buy a new Laser or ILCA. The committed ILCA sailor does not have an issue, they have 'Quality' new boats available at a price comparable to an *ero. They have the tightly controlled OD racing they've bought into. They have the worldwide infrastructure which other classes don't. I have an issue with not being able to upgrade my boat to a less clapped out one, but alas, it's an issue I'm vaguely willing to spend £2k on, not £5k, i.e. I want a boat worth about £3k as an upgrade, not a £6k one. Likewise my boat is not for sale, so someone wanting a usable boat for a grand is out of luck. Many of the familiar voices on this subject have no skin in the game at all.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 11:56am
It's fairly irrelevant whether your local club will let you race your LP Laser in the ILCA fleet, if you're willing and able to spend £4k on your sailing, you'd be better off investing in your skills, which means getting out of your small pond and sailing open events, training events, a nationals or something. Then you will understand the value in the 'class system'. I fancy doing a few Masters' events or something, kind of a last ditch attempt to learn what I can before getting a bus pass and a Beneteau....
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by eric_c

I have an issue with not being able to upgrade my boat to a less clapped out one, but alas, it's an issue I'm vaguely willing to spend £2k on, not £5k, i.e. I want a boat worth about £3k as an upgrade, not a £6k one. Likewise my boat is not for sale, so someone wanting a usable boat for a grand is out of luck. Many of the familiar voices on this subject have no skin in the game at all. 

Me too. My Laser is the equivalent of a taxi that's done 500,000 miles  (I've worn thru the gelcoat on the gunwale edge where you sit out, for instance).

But its not just lasers, look on apollo duck or FB dinghies and bits for sale and there's a very little for sale in any class considering how many boats are sitting in boat parks totally unused. But at the same time, those that are for sale second hand are at prices similar to 3-4 years ago, whereas the cost of new has risen 30% to 50%. You'd expect a lack of supply to increase prices but that does not seem to be the case. It's a weird market, but we are in weird times I suppose.

And don't get me going on a road base now being £850+, not £350. A trolley alone for the 100 is now £500
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by H2



Perhaps its just the clubs I visit but the boat park is normally full of Lasers that have not been sailed for years; there must be thousands or perhaps 10s of thousands that were not sailed last year so why do people keep paying club fees rather than sell them on? Never worked that one out

Separate issue really. Understand a few individuals who own those boats and you'll maybe find it's quite diverse  You've got the 'nth' boat syndrome, where people keep a Laser in case they want to sail but have no crew. A Laser only devalues by a few hundred a year worst case. A lot of people intend to sail but don't get out much, even without pandemics. A lot of people find social value in their club, with or without the sailing. Then there's all the hopeful dads who keep the Laser hoping the kids will sail it. Some people are happy to bung £50 extra to their club to have a boat at the back of the field, it's money to their club which they don't resent.Also inertia is a very powerful thing, I've got various other toys I could probably sell but haven't made the break. The world is full of bicycles, classic cars, motorbikes and god knows what else that people have bought but rarely use. How many people fail to get value for money out of bigger things like yachts or campervans or holiday homes?
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Demelza View Drop Down
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Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Demelza

  I have absolutely no axe to grind for LP. I only question where the UKLA are taking the class and the the cost of ILCA boats as opposed to an LP Laser which would entirely suit the average club sailor.  

If Rastagar had actually played by the rules, paid the royalties and let someone check he was building the boats properly and consistently (it is an Olympic class after all) the whole sorry mess would not have occurred. And wasn't it LP who started proposing a totally new, different carbon/mylar rig? 

The carbon top section is working out cheaper than the ally ones that the top sailors were bending permanently in no time at all. Who wants to buy 5 top sections a year? No performance gain so club sailors not impacted.

If you're working from a base of fully amortised, sunk production set-up costs, don't (wrongly) pay royalties or ISAF fees, don't invest in the class or provide support, can totally ignore QA and build standards, you probably can, in the short term, bang ‘em out cheap and still make a cash profit. 

You can’t  have it both ways - the class got where it is as a strict SMOD, same for everyone. But if you want to blame something for cost differentials (if there are any, look at new Aero prices) you’re barking up the wrong tree. The issue there is the pact-with-the-devil that is Olympic class status.
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Demelza View Drop Down
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Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Demelza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:43pm
Correction; I should have said 'I only question where the ILCA is taking the class' Although unfortunately UKLA is following in the same direction.
 
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Mark Aged 42 View Drop Down
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Posts: 98 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mark Aged 42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 22 at 12:51pm
The other issue with the old Lasers at the back of the boat park is that they are essentially money pits and are therefore not part of the second hand boat market. Even for free, they will probably need a new cover, new trolley wheels, a new sail (these boats inevitably only have a blown out standard rig) and a better dagger board. If they need XD kit as well, then better to buy a regularly sailed boat.
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