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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Demelza

I would not expect a club to refuse entry for a Laser at an open event or ask for evidence of UKLA membership.


Of course they would. We refused entry for replica sails. Its not a question of refusing entry - a boat that doesn't measure simply isn't eligible to race. End of.

Originally posted by Demelza

To call a LP Laser a 'replica' is a misnomer and somewhat ironic as they produced the original boat, surely the Ovington ILCA is the replica.


No, you're quite wrong.

The original builder was Performance Sailcraft. They went bust years ago, 70s or maybe 80s.

I believe the most recent authorised builder in Europe was Laser Performance Europe Ltd. That company is moribund and will probably go bust because they owe millions to Bruce Kirby's heirs for trademark violations, breaking contracts etc. They built boats in the UK.

The boats currently being marketed with the Laser Trademark are being built by Laser Performance LLC, who were probably never an authorised International Laser builder, and are being built in a factory in Portugal that has never been approved by the ILCA or had any of their products checked out. They have pretty much nothing to do with the International Laser class except that they license the trademark 'Laser'. Replica seems entirely fair and accurate.
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Edited by JimC - 31 Jan 22 at 6:57pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Demelza

I would think it difficult for clubs that allow replica sails for club racing not accept a current Laser produced by LP. 
I would not expect a club to refuse entry for a Laser at an open event or ask for evidence of UKLA membership. They never have in the past and would rather have the entry to their event. This could be expected at the less popular qualifier and  national level events. 
To call a LP Laser a 'replica' is a misnomer and somewhat ironic as they produced the original boat, surely the Ovington ILCA is the replica.
Interesting scenario, buy the cheaper Laser for club sailing and an ILCA sail for open events together with UKLA membership. You could choose any relevant sail number. You could even add a copy hull plaque!!  


And what happens when someone realises the 'Laser' is physically different to the ILCA-endorsed boat? Which is going to happen, due to building tolerances. Do we know whether the 'Laser' is still built to the 'build manual'? If there is no ILCA/World Sailing QA process, then you can't really assume it's the same. Why not allow people to mould their own hulls?
At the end of the day, essentially ILCA is a bunch of people who race boats, and they decide what boats are eligible. Likewise 'The Laser Class' can invite whatever boats they like to race in their class. Or anyone can race in other races where the NoR makes them eligible.

The issue at the moment is scarcity of used boats, especially at sensible prices. Boats which would have been £1500 five years ago are now over 2 grand for a 20 year old boat that's probably had a hard life. When you want to upgrade from that level, the £4k new boat starts to look appealing. Bearing in mind that most used boats under £3k need a £600 upper mast upgrade. The question is, where will future values go? If used boats drop back to where you'd have projected 5 years ago, then that's a big hit for the casual club sailor.

If  you don't want the ILCA open meeting circuit and all that, then there is a lot to be said for buying something else entirely. Or putting a new replica sail on a 25year old boat and enjoying some racing.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by JimC

...... They have pretty much nothing to do with the International Laser class except that they license the trademark 'Laser'. Replica seems entirely fair and accurate.
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'Replica' is quite a loaded word. If you type 'define replica' into your favourite search engine, you will get several definitions. Ranging from implying exact copies to including scale models.  You could say that all 200-odd thousand boats are literally replicas of Kirby's original. It's not helpful, it allows people put whatever interpretation on the word which suits them. I don't know what the best word is, it's more like a software 'fork' where something abandons commonality with its precursors and becomes a separate product? Bearing in mind the 'product' is as much the racing as the lump of plastic.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by eric_c

'Replica' is quite a loaded word.

Maybe, but its exactly the same usage as has been used for 3rd party sails in recent years. Much more loaded words are available!
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 7:57pm
Topper Byte ? Yamaha Hopper ? XL ? Not that cut and dried.



Edited by 423zero - 31 Jan 22 at 8:41pm
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john80 View Drop Down
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Posts: 37 		Post Options Post Options   Quote john80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 8:57pm
The whole idea that a laser is worth about 6k new is what I can't get my head round. This applies to all boats. We seem to be taking the idea that they are a luxury item to higher heights with every year. It's not very accessible for those who are not currently in the game which leads to the issue where sailing may well not sustain itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 9:15pm
Raking over old mud.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by john80

The whole idea that a laser is worth about 6k new is what I can't get my head round. This applies to all boats. We seem to be taking the idea that they are a luxury item to higher heights with every year. It's not very accessible for those who are not currently in the game which leads to the issue where sailing may well not sustain itself.


You try building them for significantly less.

For sure a no-name workshop can knock out something vaguely similar for maybe £3k, but you have to sell quite a few to pay the rent. Have you ever designed a product, got it to manufacture and seen it through production? It's somewhere between tough and pointless unless you can either charge £50k a go or sell thousands.


The issue with sailing is more about people wanting new stuff all the time, what stops people from buying an old boat for a three figure sum and club racing against similar?

The value in a £6k laser is buying into an ecosystem of level racing at international standard. If you don't value that, buy something else. Much as I don't like the Laser as a boat, if you can buy one for £6k, race it for 3 years and sell it for £4k, in that time you have dozens of quality events to go to and it is great value. It Is Not Just The Lump Of Plastic.

Most other classes, you get big depreciation and far fewer events.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by eric_c

'Replica' is quite a loaded word.

Maybe, but its exactly the same usage as has been used for 3rd party sails in recent years. Much more loaded words are available!


Lots of 'words ' are available, quantities of them from people with no real interest in one design or 'level' racing, mostly adding no value.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 22 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by john80

The whole idea that a laser is worth about 6k new is what I can't get my head round. This applies to all boats. We seem to be taking the idea that they are a luxury item to higher heights with every year. It's not very accessible for those who are not currently in the game which leads to the issue where sailing may well not sustain itself.

Allowing for inflation they are no more expensive than they ever have been.

In 1970 a Ford cortina was about £950  and a Laser was about £350/£400.  
A comparable Ford model today  is at least £23000 and even the cheapest Ford is about £18000. 

I don’t really see what’s changed  Smile


Edited by Grumpycat - 31 Jan 22 at 11:05pm
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