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    Posted: 03 Apr 21 at 9:59am
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 21 at 10:50am
Of course when it is very windy we don’t go racing 
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Posts: 643 		Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 9:05am
If you want the PY history going back many years, it's on each class in the CVRDA Dinghy Database thanks to Jim Champ supplying me with the RYA figures.
Pick a class and then click its Handicap History link
http://www.cvrda.org/dinghy-database-index/
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Posts: 116 		Post Options Post Options   Quote robin34024 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Are you,saying the standard of topper sailing has plummeted in the last few years?
More likely, I think, that with ten returns based system we are now seeing some overdue corrections.
Not sure why there was such a dip in turnout a few years back, was it especially windy?



Pretty much, but with one key difference. I'm saying that the standard of the average club racer in Toppers has plummeted in the last 10 years.



It it was possible for a mid fleet national sailor to consistently win competitive club races off 1290, then 1365 is no longer representative of the boat in especially capable hands. The boat hasn't changed, therefore the standard of the people who are club racing the boats must have. The handicap is altered based on clubs returns, which are after all dependant on sailors and boats, and in my opinion it's naive to think that the best club sailors in all classes are of the same skill level. I don't know if this is taken into account when PY negotiations or whatever take place.



There could be a whole load of reasons for this, but I suspect the main ones are: 
  • Just how prolific private coaches in youth classes became from 2010 onwards, drawing open meeting level Topper sailors away from club racing and focussing on individual performance. After all, racing against competitive club racers in significantly (200+ points on PY) faster boats doesn't teach you all that much that's relevant to 130 boat starts and 1.5km courses at the bigger Topper opens. 
  • Encouraging newcomers to start racing. When was RYA OnBoard launched? 2005. So give a few years for it to gain momentum, and all of a sudden you have a whole bunch of newcomers sailing Toppers at the back of racing fleets, which is fantastic for the sport - and for the Topper handicap!
  • The reassignment of the Topper as a Junior class, from a Youth class. I think this happened in 2011, but it could have been a few years either way. There was a lot of pressure to move on early when this happened, bringing the average age of topper sailors down pretty considerably - and of course there are some spectacular Junior sailors, but generally more time in a class and more time sailing = better performance. 


I think this is an extreme example of it, but its demonstrative of a bit of a broken handicap system. 



Not particularly surprisingly, the exact same trend can be seen with the Laser Radial (+40 odd points in 10 years), RS Feva (+44 points in 10 years), Laser Pico (+80 points in 10 years), and to a lesser extent with the 420 (+20 odd points in 10 years). It seems like too much of a coincidence that boats sailing with typically slow sailors, are getting slower, and if I was cynical I'd suggest something about all these being heavily RYA rupported classes.



iGRF - I'd be incredibly curious what the 'fuller number' of a Topper should be.


Edited by robin34024 - 04 Apr 21 at 1:55pm
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 3:24pm
Fuller number for a Topper, with a 60kg sailor should be around 1260 (I can't be more exact as I don't know the displacement of a Topper only the hull only weight, I've guessed at 15kg for rig and foils but it's probably more which would increase the FN...
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 4:41pm
Chatting today as we sometimes do when the b**tards are deciding what PY no they're are going to lumber me with this season, talk got round to the Laser which at our club, it's either a Laser or Contender that makes off with the chocolates and I mentioned the FN formula and how if you vary the helm weight it obviously varys the handicap.

The Laser number the formula produces based on what was the general helm weight for the Laser was 67-70 kgs and at 70kgs it was 1084 back then. (the year I first paid attention it was 1078 and one won the club championship)

Interesting fact, move the helm weight up to 85 kgs which is probably more like the average for club sailors these days, and Presto, you get 1102.

So there you have it, it's not because Laser sailors are getting to be worse at sailing, they're just getting fat and old.

So all the constant returns are doing is building a database of the increasing trend to clinical obesity amongst Club Dinghy sailors and further vindicating the FN formula!

Problem Solved, you can thank me later!


Edited by iGRF - 04 Apr 21 at 4:44pm
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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 5:00pm
The handicap history thing is interesting. My 1980 Europe races against a 1983 Lightning 368 - handicap in the 80's was 120 and 121 respectively. I'm now stuck with 1141 and he is on 1162. He is bang on competitive at that number, I have beaten him a few times, maybe I'm not as xxxx as I thought!
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by epicfail

The handicap history thing is interesting. My 1980 Europe races against a 1983 Lightning 368 - handicap in the 80's was 120 and 121 respectively. I'm now stuck with 1141 and he is on 1162. He is bang on competitive at that number, I have beaten him a few times, maybe I'm not as xxxx as I thought!


So you were 1 point different, you are now 2 points. Not a huge change in 40 years when the Europe has sprouted carbon spars and olympic level sail development.

Having said that, I struggled with the Europe against Solos inland, and bought a Lightning!
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 21 at 6:00pm
Everyone struggles against a Solo inland
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