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What we really sail

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    Posted: 01 Apr 21 at 6:05am
Robin, glad someone agrees with me about the Streaker. I would occasionally get to the top mark first Streaker to be taken down wind by a boat going considerably faster than me 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote robin34024 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 10:33pm
I really suspect that the 'Fast boats getting faster' element is dramatically skewed by the I14 and the Moth which, well, really are getting faster.


The slow boats getting slower, well - I suspect that is skewed by the junior classes. Case in point being the Topper which I believe was 1290 when I sailed one (V competitively) in roughly 2009-2013 and at that was already a benefit in strong airs, with multiple club race wins against exceptionally good sailors I really shouldnt have stood a chance against. It's now up to 1365. Is this because the boat has changed? Well, it's only sped up with the advent of decent 6:1 downhauls, a more powerful 6:1 kicker recently, and little reliability improvements (gooseneck, gudgeons, masthead) in that time, so that's a cold, hard, no. So, what's more likely being handicapped is the standard of sailors racing.



There has been a genuinely massive speed increase in the Streaker and Solo at very least with the advent of decent FRP boats since ~2005 or so, probably 15-20 point based on personal experience with a pretty good (154*) wooden Streaker, followed by an FPR rocketship (183*). The difference was all downwind, with the woodie faring excellently upwind, but sticking like sh*t downwind. So in this case - has the standard of sailor changed? Well, probably not, it's still a similar demographic of mainly old blokes with mainly current boats. What's changed, is the current boats are faster than they were 15 years ago.



IMO this demonstrates the crux of it is that what is being handicapped is a composite of: the boat speed itself, and the skill level of your average standard club racer

  • In some classes, the standard of club racer will be high as people will religiously race at their own club as training and the boat is a real all rounder (Think RS300, Enterprise, GP14, Albacore, RS200). This potentially makes the handicap go down in number, as they are some of the 'best' sailors consistently club racing and as such the handicap can only be met by the best in class.

  • Other classes will attract only elderly, non-open meeting sailors who potter round at the back of the fleet (Think - at risk of offending people - Comet, Wanderer, RS Vision, RS Quest), and as such the best in class is sort of adequate at best, in overall terms. In these classes, a 'good' sailor may be able to overachieve in handicap racing, as the handicap of the class has been dragged down over the years by substandard sailing.

  • Other classes - the good sailors will not consider club racing worth their time as it's better spent 2 boat tuning or with a coach (Think top level Laser Radial/Nacra 17/29er/49er sailor), which means that the PY may go up, or at least not be reflective of the best in class, as the standard of club racer is not representative of the actual top sailors in the fleet

  • Other classes will suit only class racing for the top sailors, and PY becomes pretty irrelevant as the top boats will be racing in fleets of their own (Think Merlin Rockets at Salcombe, or I14's at Itchenor or wherever their current hotspot in the Solent is)

  • Some development classes will have PY returns for boats of varying degrees of competitiveness (Think Merlin Rocket where everything from NSM's to Winder's is beign club raced, or National 12's where the DCB's and Crusaders alike are being club raced) which could lead to a handicap that favours newer boats but punishes older ones.

  • Or finally club racing doesnt suit the boats needs/strengths (Think I14/Moth/49er/Cherub, where a long ww/lw course is desirable to stretch the boats legs, and this is not always available), which will mean limited returns are available, and the Handicap is very much speculative/non existent/inaccurate and in these cases, either a win or loss is often attained by a significant margain.



This is all speculative, and I've barely fact checked the above, so feel free to throw some numbers/facts/abuse at me and tell me I'm wrong. Does anyone have a freely available archive of PY numbers from 2000 to 2020? Would be curious to see them and make some graphs myself if so, and I don't mind what format they're in!


Edited by robin34024 - 31 Mar 21 at 10:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 5:13pm



Originally posted by Peaky

Don’t know how many clubs returned results but I find this plot interesting. Slow boats getting slower, fast ones getting faster.


Except for the Streaker which explains why my 20year old wooden (over weight when some cowboy built it) was no match to the new much stiffer plastic fantastics, than and the nut on the tiller
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by tink

That’s very odd, interesting to see / know if suddenly a number of clubs stopped doing returns reduced and a second axis with number of clubs returning. 

The supanova always intrigues me the association and Hartley’s are clearly working hard but the odd thing is all second hand mk II are always £4250 +/- a few hundred 

Hartley’s business model seems to involve taking older boats in as px . So it means that have a big say in setting what the second hand price is . 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 4:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 4:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 4:19pm
Don’t know how many clubs returned results but I find this plot interesting. Slow boats getting slower, fast ones getting faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 4:05pm
That’s very odd, interesting to see / know if suddenly a number of clubs stopped doing returns reduced and a second axis with number of clubs returning. 

The supanova always intrigues me the association and Hartley’s are clearly working hard but the odd thing is all second hand mk II are always £4250 +/- a few hundred 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 21 at 3:54pm
What we really sail, and the changing trends since 2012. A look at the number of race results used for PY returns, so I got only. What happened in 2015, was it windy?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 21 at 8:04pm
These are from a couple of years back but I don’t think too much has changed.
First one shows the number people sailing different classes (on a log scale) - green are double handlers, blue single handlers. What surprised me was that although single handers are more popular, double handers get more people sailing (except for the Laser). Last pic shows that generally fast boats had (in 2018) a reduction in PY, slow boats an increase.
Second one shows the exponential increase in popularity of classes.
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