New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Pointless PY Pondering
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Pointless PY Pondering
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 10:03am
Originally posted by DiscoBall

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


It's racing though, the whole point is 'results'! [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="[img]


is it though? Are results not just a (highly imperfect) measure of competence in a sport and gaining that competence is the real reward?

No, of course it's not the whole point (hence the smilie) but, equally, racing without results is just a cruise in company. I don't expect to finish in the top half of the fleet these days but I still want to know where I've finished (to see if I did better than last week, i.e. personal best).

Interesting the positive comments re: personal handicap racing above - a closer fit to the idea of personal bests/achievement found in other sports? And more motivating to at all levels of a fleet as it challenges the groundhog day pecking orders of standard py (or class) racing?

When I sailed at Red Wharf Bay Sailing Club as a teenager they used personal handicaps I think the same guys did most of the winning but I guess it did mix things up a little.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
Mozzy View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Apr 20
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 11:36am
I liked the personal handicaps at my club as a junior. I think 3 wins and then your handicap got re-calculated on your last 5 results or something. The series would usually be won by a new helm who could 'chase' their handicap down through the series. 

However, the personal handicaps also worked as a bit of a ranking, with handicaps for each class listed on the notice board. 

The downside was it required regular competition to be meaningful and lots of calculation by class captains. I tried a similar thing at HISC with the 200 fleet. Bu running short sprint races on our 'class' days seemed to mix the results up enough (for individual races anyway) and taking times when everyone is finishing so close made it difficult for the race officer. 

I like pursuits over single start handicaps races, as whilst the results themselves aren't particularly definitiive for either, I find process of chasing and being chased much more engaging on the water with a pursuit race. 

I think the 800s at HISC are going to try a multiple buoys race, like the Sydney 18s with the three windward marks. It's a bit more crude than a personal yardstick, but, doesn't need any calculation pre or post race and keeps things tight on the water. It also gives the winner the satisfaction of line honours. 

I'd rather handicap racing stayed away from looking at ever increasingly accurate (but perhaps still flawed) ways of determining who sailed the best, and instead focused on finding formats which increase fun. 


Edited by Mozzy - 26 Nov 20 at 11:37am
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 12:57pm
I'm a great fan of personal handicaps.

I remember doing Back Calculated Yardsticks back in the day, with a slide rule, no less, for each boat after every race.

Are they still around?


Edited by Brass - 26 Nov 20 at 12:58pm
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 1:49pm

Personal handicap results and regular revisions....  Blimey some of you obviously need to get out a bit more !  At Burghfield we have had weekly revisions for these personal handicap races available for years and I believe the club is far from alone.

 

There should be  '**** all' extra loading on some hard-pressed 'human calculator' these days (presumably these wretched down-trodden souls are  still working with their abacus and quill pen on ink-stained parchment in some locations !)  All you need is to setup or get hold of a decent results programme to do the boring stuff.  Come on guys we've had the basic technology for several decades now !!  Keep up... or at least ask how others are doing it all totally without pain.  It’s not magic.

 

If you don’t like the format fine ... but then others might.  Just don’t try and justify it on the grounds of ‘not possible’ or perhaps ‘too difficult’  and remember you don’t have to enter said races/events.  Nobody is suggesting here that it replace fleet racing or even regular handicap racing either – it is additive.

Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 3:15pm
I've said this before, but the whole system if done well could have been 'moneytised' if someone at the RYA had a lick of business acumen.

The boat register should be fixed and calculated to a performance quotient based on all the length, sail size, weight, crew number, data and very difficult to achieve sailed when 'scratch'

Then everyone gets a golf style handicap which is applied to his/her boat, that could of couse represent to a degree where they sail.

You would have to join the scheme, which of course could bear a cost, as could the builders when applying for a handicap for their new craft. But the calculation should be according to a formula not unlike the one Peaky called the 'Fuller' number and it can't be bent out of shape by some well meaning committee of class status quo preserving types.

There would be imv an incentive towards achieving a handicap nearer 'scratch' or a degree of kudos if you did sail off a low handicap.

But then that would require someone at the RYA who did infact a) give a damn or b) have the necessary discretion to make it happen and sadly those sort of people don't appear to exists these days.
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I've said this before, but the whole system if done well could have been 'moneytised' if someone at the RYA had a lick of business acumen.

The boat register should be fixed and calculated to a performance quotient based on all the length, sail size, weight, crew number, data and very difficult to achieve sailed when 'scratch'

Then everyone gets a golf style handicap which is applied to his/her boat, that could of couse represent to a degree where they sail. (And/Or the particular venue gets a Par handicap of its own which solves the inland v coastal problem)

You would have to join the scheme, which of course could bear a cost, as could the builders when applying for a handicap for their new craft. But the calculation should be according to a formula not unlike the one Peaky called the 'Fuller' number and it can't be bent out of shape by some well meaning committee of class status quo preserving types.

There would be imv an incentive towards achieving a handicap nearer 'scratch' or a degree of kudos if you did sail off a low handicap.

But then that would require someone at the RYA who did infact a) give a damn or b) have the necessary discretion to make it happen and sadly those sort of people don't appear to exists these days.


Edited by iGRF - 26 Nov 20 at 3:18pm
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
Old bloke View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 03 Nov 17
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old bloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 4:19pm
I would have no problem with a measurement rule system if it worked. But all of the yacht rating rules have ended up being type forming and I strongly suspect that the "Fuller" rule would be the same. So then a large portion of the existing fleets would be obsolete, and as the RYA is ,rightly, a member's rather than a builder's organization it wouldn't be very popular.
Rather than spending the time and money on new boats( which I applaud) maybe you should put your energies into the "Fuller Series" which we can enter and prove you right!.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 4:35pm
"Golf style handicap" could be done in a fleet like the Laser.

But imagine golf handicaps where everybody plays with a different type of stick to hit the balls with, each of which has a different par for each hole. Results aren't going to really going to reflect ability that accurately are they? But it might be fun as a novelty.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 4:40pm
Does anyone know how many different yacht rating systems have been used over the lifetime of PY? And how many yachts were designed so specifically for a particular system that as soon as it fell from favour (or plugged a loophole) that they ended up abandoned after a season or 2 of racing?

And does anyone bar grf want that for dinghy sailing?

Not rhetorical questions - I'd love to know, at least the one about how many rating systems.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 5:31pm
As has been mentioned before the problem with a formula based yardstick is that designers will design to exploit the formula and you end up with some odd shaped and potentially ill handling boats (as was seen amongst IOC keelboats in the '70s and '80s. The problem with the results based system we have is that the numbers of returns are too small for an accurate statistical analysis for all but a few classes.

I do reckon the Fuller Number would be a fair way of awarding a provisional number to a new class and a reasonably fair number to 'lost classes' (though, disappointingly, it throws up 926 for the Spice when I was hoping for something nearer 960  Embarrassed).


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 26 Nov 20 at 5:39pm
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy