Pointless PY Pondering
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13716
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 9:52am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
Posted By: epicfail
Subject: Pointless PY Pondering
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 7:38pm
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Yes I know its all based on race returns but are there obvious boat design issues that might account for the differences. Is it primarily down to weight and length? The Lightning is longer than the Europe has the same sail area but the hull is 9kg heavier, Is that enough to explain the slower PY than the Europe? Or perhaps I'm a fool to ask?
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Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 8:09pm
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In sub planing conditions the biggest single factor is waterline length, as more racing probably takes place in sub planing conditions it has a disproportionate effect on the PN. This is reflected in what has been dubbed "The Fuller Number" somewhere in this thread https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13443&KW=fuller&PN=1&title=so-just-how-important-is-a-boats-py-yardstick" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13443&KW=fuller&PN=1&title=so-just-how-important-is-a-boats-py-yardstick ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 8:31pm
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The PY as it stands is really a bit of a farce and doesn't bear any relationship to a boats actual speed through the water, it's a mix of results based on the volume and skill level of users, manipulated as far as I can tell by a committee of, with the best will in the world toward them, agenda driven folk primarily interested in protecting certain classes, being either deliberately mainpulated themselves into favouring others, and hampering new boats wishing to enter the 'fray' with punitive rating or they are just plain stupid. All under the guise of using returns from mainly inland clubs which in itself sways the results towards that end. (Has the Laser really gotten so much slower in the last five years with it's new equipment, sails, masts and XD system or are there a couple of the Laserati on said committee)
It is a very bad system, they are either completely incompetent or under restrictions placed upon them by our oppressive Governing body and we suffer as a result. Short of starting a new system under a body wishing to actually promote racing under a fairer more scientific system which will still be wrong in v arious wetaher conditions, I despair for us all. Finally and the worse, we don't even know who these people are, other than a sneaking suspicion they're RS Employees according to the favorable Aero handicap.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 9:02pm
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Sailing is an amazing sport - so many variables, the PY system has a hard job to do. I'm a bit rubbish and sail a 80's Europe with a tin mast, I suspect it's a bit slower than more recent examples with carbon rigs. I always cross the line in front of a chap sailing an Aero 7 yet only rarely get ahead of a Lightning. I can be ahead of some Lasers but always get beaten by two others. I does not stop me having a great time. The skill of the helm is obviously a massive part of the deal - I suppose trying to understand some of these results is pointless. I have yet to sail against another Europe, something I will put right next year, then it might be time to give up!
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 9:52pm
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Grf I think your tin foil hat must be on too tight. The py system works as well as any handicap system can. As so many people have tried to explain to you . You post so much interesting and/or funny stuff. Then you post this conspiracy theory b@@@@ks that makes you sound like a flat earth/anti vaccine type person . Please please please stay away from yardsticks and stick with the stuff you do so well .
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 10:51pm
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So, and I'm not denying the presence of tinfoil (it also wards of Covid19), what exactly do you dispute in that little, I thought quite gentle admonishment of the PYsystem.?
Is the group transparent? No. Do they demolish new classes? Yes Has the RS Aero escaped that demolition? Most defnitely. Do we even know who they are? Some people do, some people don't. 40 years of nearly Marine Industry experience I'm afraid has taught me to be extremely cynical when it comes to the 'old boy' and 'not so old boy' networks that orbit the RYA. So I'll stick with the Tinfoil for now.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 11:18pm
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How do you think your new boat should be treated?
PY committee have to have something to work on? You must know by now who some of the committee are. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 11:22pm
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Did the Aero escape, or just get enough returns quickly enough for the yardstick to be not too far out?
Yes, the system is driven by results. Yes, that can cause issues. No, the Laser hasn't got slower. It used to have a sh*t yardstick from when very few changes were made, though I know you don't think so. The Europe has a harsh handicap for light winds inland, but I think makes up for it in a blow on the sea. The one I don't understand is the British Moth. Which club handicap races BMs and never has any wind on a Sunday? Otherwise, why is it so punitive? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:10am
Really? You have to ask? You can't be that naive surely... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:14am
Nope, I haven't a clue, I do know Dougalldog did try for a serious journalistic approach but they f**ked him off. The fact they don't rotate.. or maybe they do, I honestly don't know, but they should, whoever they are they aint doing it right, but since when did anything managed by a committee succeed... My new boat? I'm past caring what they do, and I haven't had time to even bung it through my spreadsheet, which I can't find anyway it was that long ago I was messing with it, it will probably get the Icon treatment since I don't have the clout RS do, but it wont matter if the boat is fun to sail, like the Farr, that hasn't got a yardstick either. It's their probem not mine, it's they who are not representing the sport they are supposed to be governing. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:37am
For boats like the Laser, Europe and Lightning which are type formed singlehanders the Fuller number works quite well as a PY estimator. Fuller PY = 1800 - (144 x Length) - (37 x Sail Area) + (1.2 x Weight) https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11438&title=the-fuller-number" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11438&title=the-fuller-number Obviously though the PY is a crude average. The Solo and Radial have similar PYs but the Solo is quicker below 8kts and the Radial quicker above 12kts. That’s because the Solo has a relatively big sail but a speed limited hull (short and rockered) whilst the Radial has a small sail and faster hull. |
Posted By: CarbonCopy3459
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 11:57am
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I wonder what would happen if the PY were based on the top 'sq. root of the number of entries' in each race (or top 3 if less than 9 entries). Yes, there would be less data to work with (itself an issue) but would it not skew the results more towards boat performance, as it might be assumed that the top finishers are nearer to being the 'ideal sailor' than the average. Perhaps some boats would never get a result counted Mine certainly wouldn't!  ------------- CC |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:16pm
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I believe the lowest 10% of results are discarded before the returns are processed so as to represent the boars performance in the hands of an average to good sailor. Historically the very best sailors were more likely to race in class events so didn't turn up in handicap results so much. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 2:25pm
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There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data to the RYA. This way the PY is based upon the mid fleet rather than taking into account the better sailors. If you have been in the sport a while you know this is going on and either join in and get your better helms along to those clubs or you just ignore it. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 3:00pm
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Its really not worth spending too much time worrying about handicap racing.
Generally every dog has its day - depending on the conditions and course. Some classes will be awful in some conditions and brilliant in other and some classes will be ok in most but never excel (Laser ?) It can never be totally fair to everyone and should be viewed this way Certain classes also have an advantage - PYs are based on average results (the average boats club racing). Hence the results of older club wayfarers skew the results of the up to date Hartley boats. i.e the variation from one to the other is huge. With most racing classes the performance variations are far less All in all its best to accept handicap racing for what it is - some days you wont win however well you sail. Even for larger keelboats (most of whom race in handicap fleets) its just the same - every dog.... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 3:11pm
Perhaps because they are class racing? Otherwise it seems like a very round about way of keeping, by the time sailor numbers are taken into account, a fraction of a % on a yardstick. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 3:46pm
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There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best
sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data
to the RYA ... Blimey that sounds more like a US election conspiracy theory in the making - are you suggesting that multiple classes with multiple sailors are doing this on an organised basis .. and not a single person 'involved' has so far blown the whistle and named names ? People are really checking out clubs that do returns and moving to avoid them ? Well I suppose 'they' must be doing it - stands to reason... (according to 'Dave' in the bar at least after a couple or three pints of Stella anyway ....  ) I never knew ....
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 4:23pm
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I haven't heard of it either, what percentage of clubs don't submit results? Seems extreme to move from a club because your results are affecting your classes PY figure, are mediocre sailors moving to clubs that do send in results? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 5:18pm
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Well here is the RYA website showing which clubs return data: http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-clubs.php its a bit of a pain as you have to click on the club and then see if they have returned data. Of course the last 12 months is weird due to C19 but I recall doing this a year back and it was clear many of the larger, more active clubs with some of the best helms did not return data and I have asked around as to why this was and always got the same answer. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 5:20pm
Or you can sort the website by class Mike (http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-classes.php) and see that for the Blaze Burghfield has not returned any data on your races ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:22pm
Oh dear  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:50pm
The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it. |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 8:25pm
Of course. We have a declining audience and so the Cost_To_Change vs Benefit is minimal. As for the spurious bar talk about manipulation by top sailors joining clubs who dont submit results - show me the proof, show me the money. Name names. And if you do Show Me, any end result by such an incredible "Lance Armstrong" minority, is really not going to skew the PY to any real degree. It is so preposterous as not to warrant any credibility. Sorry, H2, but I just dont buy it. It's beer talk
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Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 8:42pm
Cost may prohibit any change but it has nothing to do with the will to change. I maintain that there is no (with those that matter) will to change. |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:19pm
I agree, but its a circular argument. Theres no will because there's no perceived significant benefit. Status quo and all that...
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:47pm
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Or you can sort the website by
class Mike (http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-classes.php) and see that for the
Blaze Burghfield has not returned any data on your races
Sorry - I've only been a full BSC member for 38 years and as a student member before that as long as I could get away with it... so obviously I was even planning this all before the Blaze even came into being - is that what you are implying ? (btw - of course when I was in the committee system at BSC we ALWAYS put it returns ). Looks like as soon as the current incumbents start doing it again I'll either have to switch classes or clubs then to prove you dodgy ‘fake news’ conspiracy theorists right !! ) Dream on ... |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:48pm
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Making a very simple mathematical formula based on returns from your own clubs very complicated. What do you think they are doing? They are not sitting round a cauldron cackling. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 10:00pm
In an ideal world there would be some form of handicap based on the ability of the boat and not the sailor, would this solve the problem? Probably not, no doubt some people would be happy others not. Are there enough important handicap events to make this an issue? The fact that I think the PY of my Europe on my lake might be a bit low isn't really an issue, after all it's likely to be down to my lack of ability  The Solo and Europe are very different but share the same PY, from where I sail this looks about right. The Europe and Lightning are not dissimilar but are some way apart. I suppose I was looking for some revelation that would explain this. I don't really care enough to change classes just to be closer to the front of the pond handicap. After all the Europe is a lovely boat to sail.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 11:31pm
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Europe is a lovely boat, based on a sail in an older one I nearly bought and might've done so if rigs for the heavier end of the weight range were plentiful. But, handicaps based exclusively on the performance of the boat can only be formula based and keelboat handicapping in the '80s demonstrated that that approach just introduces a different set of inaccuracies. Given enough returns the PY system is the most accurate available but any statistical sample with only a few thousand samples is compromised. In the current PN list only the Laser and the Solo have more than 10,000 returns, any reputable statistician is going to places his head in his hands when presented with such data... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 2:40am
I think the Lightning PY was closer to the Europe/Radial/Byte/Solo ballpark before? Not sure what happened to change it so much, though as classes go through cycles of popularity I guess the average skill level of the fleet may change significantly and have an effect on returns. Ultimately PY is just a bit of fun. The Europe is a great boat and sails well to its handicap in moderate conditions. In lighter (Solo) and heavier (radial) conditions going the right way and boat handling respectively count for a lot more in the final result so you can make up for any perceived PY disadvantage with practice! :) |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 6:49am
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Can anyone name a sport where a novice, Sunday warriors, and world champions all compete together at the same time in the same race using widely different equipment. PY system might not be perfect but what it achieves is pretty awesome. Each class will have its ideal conditions and there is not a lot that can be done about it. As people have said length is the key indicator of speed followed by sail area, and weight but there other variables that are more subtle. The Streaker for example has appalling dagger board (flat boards with a bit of shape front and back). ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 8:33am
OK hands up I will admit to that troll - sorry! It is a theory that has been talked about over the years and I have genuinely heard it repeated a number of times, but I do not believe it. Was just feeling mischievous, aorry all, back in my box ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:21am
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At risk of being told I'm "part of the system", or whatever, I don't think the Portsmouth Yardstick is broken at all. Can it deliver fair racing across all types of water in all wind conditions? Of course it can't. Can it get pretty damn close to this over a series of races in varied conditions in one location. Yes.
If you decide to sail a Musto Skiff on a 10 acre lake, or a British Moth on the North Sea, will you get the same results as you would if you swapped the boats? No, of course not. But either the club could tweak the yardstick, or common sense on the part of the sailor could prevail. That it's been running in a recognisable format for nigh on 70 years despite people whinging about bandits that other people sail and how harshly "their" boat is treated, suggests to me that it's a pretty fine system. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:41am
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Spot on Rupert ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:53am
You hit the nail on the head there. That aside "Perceived significant benefit" is totally subjective. There are many that believe the system needs overhauling but institutionalised conservative thinking will never provide the will to do it. Having said that....
Yes Tink, I'm missing it dreadfully but it is a small pond and it's getting smaller as we speak so now is definitely not the time to go rocking the boat.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:14am
Spot on +2
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:25am
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"Institutionalized conservative thinking". Or perhaps what we have is better than the alternatives being suggested?
Easy enough to find out. Get several clubs (actually, just individuals at clubs) to run whatever the New Improved system is, whether it is simply fiddling with the data in a different way, or creating a measurement system, in parallel to the existing system. Study the results for maybe 3 seasons, and see whether the results seem more fair or logical. If running a measurement system, see if anyone modifies or builds a boat to beat it. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:37am
| ........and as the pond gets smaller so the contents get more distilled, more refined with fewer nuances. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:40am
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I completely agree Rupert - it's not a perfect system, because such a thing will never exist. If anyone gets *that* upset about the PY system's failings (of which it has plenty), then perhaps that person needs to reassess their ambitions..... If you're getting so bent out of shape about the system 'working against you' in your battle to win a tiny wooden trophy at Icklepond SC, perhaps you need to remind yourself that we do this for fun. And if you're frustrated that your peerless talent is being downtrodden by this unfair system, then perhaps you should do like a huge number of sailors, and view Club PY racing as just training sessions to prepare you for the real and fair challenge of Class racing on the Open circuit. Don't get me wrong.... there's absolutely nothing wrong with having Club PY racing as the focus of your (sporting) life - I've done this in numerous period of my life and thoroughly enjoyed it (for what it is), but if the PY system feels like it's ruining your (sporting) life, perhaps it's time for a different perspective.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:45am
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on the whole what I think you see with the PY moaners is that it is broke, rubbish, etc, without ever providing a suitable alternative that is superior to it. Yes it has its flaws, but a lot of that is down to boats that are binary in their performance, such as the BM and the Contender, etc, which will always skew the numbers. But unless you as a club are prepared to change the numbers to suit your water and also take into account changing them for the wind strength each week, and perhaps between races too, you are always doomed to failure, oh and don't forget to add in the personal handicaping as well. Stop moaning about it and start sailing. I sail a boat that is hard to perform to its PY (or so I'm told), but perhaps its because I'm not as good as those sailing the boats that beat me. Or is it their boats are better suited to the water we sail. I don't know, I don't care, I just enjoy having a race against them and every now and again getting a little closer to them, or god forbid actually beating them. PY racing is all I have and I love sailing against the different boats, it makes it far more interesting than that boring fleet racing. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:56am
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The only thing that is ruining my sporting life at the moment is Covid. Personally I don't have to be *that* upset to point out that something isn't quite right....It seems to me when someone points out a flaw others tend to get *that* upset in response. It's when the name calling starts. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 11:38am
The thing with fleet racing is that in a small club fleet of Solos or Lasers you can often predict the results before the preparatory signal, you won't be right every time but often enough when you see who's turned up and what the wind is doing. Of course the same applies to a handicap fleet but maybe to a lesser extent due to different classes having different 'ideal' conditions. But it's always the same few names at the top of the results at the end of a series. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 12:15pm
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Once upon a time, about 10 years ago(I haven't checked), at least 2 members of the faceless and nameless "they" who run the Portsmouth Yardstick group used to post on this forum. Marke and ChrisJ(?).They were happy to explain in great detail the mathematical and statistical basis of the system.
Eventually they got bored with repeating themselves to the deaf ears of the flat earthers and conspiracy theorists and left to do something more useful. If anyone here wants to know the actual process the the search function will be your friend |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 2:41pm
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Chris J hasn't visited since oct '19, marke posted in February. A search of their posts has led to some good reading (I even found a post by Graeme where he said "To me I'd rather have the idiosyncrasies of handicap racing than the body size/weight constrictions of fleet racing at least I can use my brain power to overcome my size limitations."!!!! But finding the posts where they explain the details of the system the PY Committee use to process the returns is a bit more complex so if anybody comes across such a link would be welcome. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 3:08pm
| Those posts don’t exist, not actual details. If they did the details would be on the RYA site too. |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 3:32pm
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The process is fine as far as I can work out, it's just a shame that more can't be done with the end result. Perhaps, as you said somewhere else Sam, there is not enough data or not enough data from the different types of venue to produce a more adventurous PY system (s) It seems to me that several steps need to be dealt with in order for things to change. The first step would be to stop calling critics of the system whingers and moaners or handicap losers. My own personal experience of PY flaws comes from sailing a boat that went from having a reasonable |PY to become one of the biggest bandits on the list. It got to the stage were I had to work so damn hard to lose that it was an embarrassment. Our results were way better than our talent. Ditched the boat in the end and what a blow that was , loved sailing that boat with my wife....... so how about stopping the insults and having a proper debate? |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 3:40pm
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Over the years I have tried to gain a deeper insight into the thinking that determines how the PY system runs, but am now far closer to the viewpoint expressed by Rupert than I am to the thinking that views boats as either dogs or bandits when sailing a handicap race. But at the same time, could a better system be devised? The answer there has to be a 'possible yes' BUT - for all those who think that they could do better, every attempt that I have seen to date has fallen at the first hurdle! That first question that has to be answered (and hasn't been to the best of my knowledge) is.... what is the PY system meant to do? Should a number be a number, with the tacit understand that like the stopped clock, which is right twice a day, that the PY system as is tends to be right or there abouts for everyone at some point in the season. Or, should a PY system be interventionist, so that it tweaks the numbers depending on a whole range of variables? Go down that path and you enter a strange numerical world where the theory results in numbers that might be fairer, but are even more opaque than they are now. Having invested a lot of time on this one topic, my research showed that probably the biggest mistake made in PY sailing is in the failure to map 'the sailor onto the boat' - if we take that well known personality from on this forum, short of gifting away a magical PY number that any self-respecting race committee would say "we will knock 50 points off that for starters", sub 70kg and a 9m sail, on the open sea, you might have a flyer in a F2 but any more than that and the performance will drop away...no matter how much you can tweak the rig! The sport we have now may not be perfect but from what I see, it works more than it fails and by and large, the right people win - which is surely what the system is meant to deliver... unless I've got it very wron! Dougaldog ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:14pm
If those same people would stop talking about smoke filled rooms, systemic bias, how sh*t the current system is and how "they" ought to fix it, I might have more sympathy. And why not just ask for a more realistic club number? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:17pm
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I would like to ask that the PYAG consider the following suggestions: 1. Put a document on the RYA website explaining how the numbers are calculated. 2. Reduce the resolution of the numbers – round numbers to the nearest 4 or so. 3. Adjust the way the relativity is used, so that only classes that have actually gotten slower in absolute sense (or were previously harshly handicapped) get a PY increase. Obviously there are not many classes that evolve to become slower. 4. Find ways to reduce the burden and onus on clubs to alter numbers. 5. Publish the historic PY numbers of classes over the years, so that the relative effect of changes can be better appreciated. 6. Have a different, and transparent, method for allocating (temporary) numbers to new classes – it should not be in the hands of the manufacturer/class to propose a number. At the end of the day, it is not about having a more accurate scheme. It is about having a fair and workable scheme that encourages boats to go racing. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:31pm
| A2Z 3) you do realise a boat py has nothing to do with the speed of the boat only the speed of the group of sailors sailing it ? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:55pm
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A2Z, have you sent this to the RYA? I don't agree with all of it, but they are certainly things to be considered.
Personally 1, yes, I'd like to see that. 2, yes, I think it gives a false expectation of accuracy. 3, no. It is relative speeds we are looking at. 4 maybe. Not a burden, as such, but can cause friction, and usually insufficient data. 5, the class may have the most info, and maybe too much expectation is put on the system for boats with no data. Some patience from the owners of new classes might be an answer. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 5:07pm
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Key Messages
- The RYA only makes RECOMMENDATIONS to clubs
- In order to run an effective scheme the clubs MUST take control of their own racing
- The clubs should develop their own handicap list to tailor for their local factors
- If a handicap is deemed to be “wrong” it is for the club to analyse race data and make an
adjustment if required. (quote from RYA) ------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 5:12pm
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https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/201153/Damned-if-you-do
------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 5:27pm
I think this is what AtoZ means. In reality, for several reasons, this is hard to do. If the RYA could facilitate a meeting of minds for clubs with similar water, it would give more data and better chance of club harmony. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 5:31pm
Don’t you find it a little confusing and counterintuitive that a class’ PY can increase when the underlying boat hasn’t got any slower? In fact, a PY can actually increase for a class that is quicker than it used to be as long as it rises less than other classes. An individual pond club with, say, one Blaze and two Supernovas amongst a gaggle of Lasers is not in a position to change the Blaze handicap just because it struggles to win. Maybe she’s a crap sailor. Maybe the Lasers are all excellent. Maybe the small courses don’t suit and maybe all other Blaze returns are from open water clubs. Who knows?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 7:55pm
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No, I don't find it counterintuitive! If the Laser yardstick didn't get slower, 100 others would need to change to allow the stats to work.
A club can change the Blaze handicap in that situation. But I agree, in reality, it is unlikely to. However, if we had the information from, say, 6 other small clubs who also had Blazes racing Lasers, then maybe we start to build a small picture inside the bigger one, and decisions could be made. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:29pm
Correction, ChrisG was the other PYAG member and his most recent post was in March 2018 though he last visited in Oct '19. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 8:30am
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https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/2007%20Portsmouth%20Yardstick%20Scheme/2007%20Instructions%20for%20Worksheet.pdf
Though everything has gone computerised since this document, the processes remain virtually the same. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 8:36am
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Nice man is Chris G, still on the py committee, the man crunching the numbers at the Draycote dash still works hard DOING stuff at club level. Cannot see him ever posting on here again. But at least if you go back into the old threads you can find Baz, Chris G and Jim C all explain the system .
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Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 9:01am
1.....The more transparency the better 2......maybe 3......makes sense. Once a trusted number with a high degree of confidence has been established why increase the number when the skill level declines? For all I know there may be a very good reason, this takes me back to item 1, more transparency 4.......It's obvious that most clubs are very reluctant to alter the published numbers. That part of the system is defo broken. 5.....again more transparency 6.....yes One of the major problems for open sea clubs is that most returns are from small to medium ponds/lakes so the system works better for the later. The system is biased towards gusty, non tidal venues with no waves.......IMO this is the second biggest problem with the entire system, it makes a major difference to the results. I really can't overstate this. The slower the boat the bigger the problem gets in respect of tide only. Clearly the PY team need more data particularly from open sea clubs but although this would help it doesn't solve the issue entirely. The biggest problem with the system: How to get more returns from clubs? how to get an even spread of data? Clubs obviously benefit hugely from a handicap system but how do you get them to participate fully? This bit is speculation, beer talk and conspiracy: Do the RYA actually want more data? They say they do. I assume (I don't know because of lack of transparency) that a sudden increase in data would require extra work and extra cost? How committed are the RYA to improving the system? EDIT:
With regards to named individual members of the PY team explaining aspect of the system on social media, this forum in particular: As an attempt at transparency it was always going to be a disaster, it was always destined to failure and bad feeling. It predictably got personal and placed the members of the team in an impossible position. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:52am
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Sorry but all these points have been already answered many many times in many many threads on here and by the RYA themselves.Google is your friend. If not ask the man in charge of the system at the RYA to come and do a talk on at at your club once COVID is over . GRF invited him to his club a few years ago and the system was explained to him in great detail. The problem is, as has already been mentioned, that the answers don’t fit the narrative put forward by the fin foil wearers .
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 12:38pm
| I don’t know how Rupert found the link he posted on the previous page but it isn’t under RYA/Racing/PY which is where you might expect to find an explanation of how the scheme works. There’s little point the RYA only posting explanations on here but not their own site. As to the rest, it isn’t tin hat territory to ask for a little more transparency and a little less fidelity. Just friendly constructive suggestions. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 2:27pm
He did indeed and the said man promised there was going to be a significant announcement at the following years dinghy show about an upgrade that was going to address all the points made. No such announcement was forthcoming Further to the visit we at Hythe have submitted returns, indeed eventually some years later 'confidence' was forthcoming, the result? The Lasers should get slower and the Contenders faster, which effectively means everyone else could go screw themselves, it's the very lie the system is built on. It is not fair to all, it is fair only to the big numbers. Without a gounding about which to pivot, the data just starts to feed off itself, I wonder if they even understand what it is they've built it's so out of control imv. I wish they'd let someone like Peaky have a look, he's got the right sort of brain for this sort of thing. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 4:15pm
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A2Z the only thing I can suggest is to contact the RYA directly. That’s what I did a couple of years ago and they were more than happy to explain the system in detail. TBH It’s a much better idea than posting on here. The few of us that are still on here have heard it so often that we are all polarised into two camps. Tin foil or non tin foil hat wearers
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Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 6:25pm
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....ah well, 'twas fun for a while
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 6:51pm
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There's no problem with thoughtful discussions regarding anything, problem is when posters not only infer fiddling but actually state it's happening. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 7:29pm
Spot on, other than the fiddler sails a boat and wants to do better I can’t see any motivation for fiddling. Obviously there are many illegal returns being made and we need a recount, I won, fake news ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 8:30pm
I guess you're refering to IGRF's post of earlier in the thread. If you are then it might be more constructive to call that post and IGRF (or anyone else) out specifically as and when you think he's being unhelpful. Don't use inference and innuendo to point it out. .....and Grumpy cat don't use your disapproval of one post to try and control and shut down a discussion that scares you by using ridicule and scorn.......if you think the discussion is pointless then don't participate. By the way I'm guessing you sail on a pond or lake? The world is now changing at an alarming rate and the conservatism in the sport is holding it back. The fear of new ideas, new ways of doing things and an aversion to people saying "what if? is not doing the sport any favours right now. "The status quo" "it's how it's been done for 70 yrs"........ surely this forum deserves better than that" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 8:43pm
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I was referring to the suggestion that we shouldn't be discussing issues on here, not just this particular thread, I have no problem with disagreement, nothing to be gained by targeting a particular poster either,I prefer to 'try' reasonable alternatives and post links to alternative views. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 9:46pm
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To call me out or get me to remove the tinfoil, you have to provide proof that the points I made are not fact.
1) No transparency 2) Delberate destruction of embryonic classes. 3) Favoritiism to others. 4) Give me a list of the committee members (Oh and the classes they represent of course.) Simples, not much to ask in 2021 when under the freedom of information act I can get much more important Government information.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:10pm
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Think the burden of proof is on the one making the assertions otherwise debate becomes meaningless.
Gonna leave you with it. |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:43pm
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Like democracy, I would suggest that the PY system is the worst possible way of handicapping boats... ...apart from all the others that have been tried! |
Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:50pm
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Maybe I shouldn't have asked the question; I guess the PY debate is a never ending saga. The view that there is a level of pressure exerted to influence the numbers allocated to some classes is interesting. However I don't see why anyone would go to the trouble. Does a perceived favourable PY number lead to increased sales of new boats? If there is no significant financial advantage to the interested parties what is the point? |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 8:49am
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That is exactly what some people say. For the life of me I can't see the logic but there y'go. Surely if a new class arrives people are attracted by it's looks and likely sailing characteristics, to then speculate "how it would do" in handicap racing seems a leap too far to me. Perhaps I'm the one who is out of step with the dinghy world but then I see myself as someone who races to sail not someone who sails to race. I rarely see myself as racing against other sailors, I'm racing against the conditions and my own inadequacies. Therefore "how I do" in PY racing is little more than a rough guide, Class racing tells a truer tale but even then I very rarely if ever sail to purposely slow another sailor.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 9:06am
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Any new class (and clubs) should accept that whilst the performance is unknown, the yardstick should be used in reverse. The boat should race, times taken, then crew skill taken into account to get a starting point for the number. Do this in enough places, races, sailors, you start to get a worthwhile experimental number. Accept that for a few months, actual results will be meaningless. Pretty easy with a boat like the Aero where people with known skill in Lasers and Solos may have jumped into them. Harder for a one off, which is why I guess toys get thrown.
Does it really matter that you can't win a tin cup for a short while if it means creating a fairer yardstick over time? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:25am
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Data protection may be the reason why RYA group are not listed publicly. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:49am
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More likely so they don't get death threats from people who "know they should be winning, but the PAYG have it in for them" ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:56am
| From a conflict of interest point of view, not too much to ask what classes those on the committee sail, surely? If only to avoid unfounded allegations. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 11:25am
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The average club handicap race has a almost new £25k Merlin, a ten year old GP and a Laser with a sail bought last century. How does any handicap system deal with that? - and no- the slowest sailor may not be in the cheapest boat.
Its great to be alone in picking out the right side of the beat, feeling the " bite" as you come out of the perfect roll tack and catching the first wave on the reach. The rest is just stuff for afterwards. Enjoy the sailing and if you are desperate to find your rank and speed level, do some Opens and major events next year |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 11:44am
1 agreed more transparency the better 2 where’s your proof? 3 where’s your proof? For it to happen it must of been of great financial benefit to someone, where’s the paper trail? 4 why do you need names, won’t classes represented do? It’s a bully tactic to demand names. You can get more Important info from the the gov, you’ve kind of nailed yourself there, it’s not that important in the grand scheme. For the record: I was on my club com changing handicaps, the tin hatters came out in force despite running to rya guidelines and made enough of a stink that i decided to concede after actual threats were made to me. Can you blame people for not wanting to bow to these aggressive types and give over their personal Info. Get real! It has been explained over and over, advice given and taken, constructive elements added and for what? Puss and vinegar. Set up your system, work at making it a success, make it the go to formula and make the world a better place if it’s really that good. And if it is people will flock and everyone pat you on the back, because deep down that’s what you want. In short be constructive not destructive. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 12:38pm
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So why, if all is so near enough 'perfect' in the minds of
some, has application of the Great
Lakes numbers prospered ? And before it is suggested that they
might only prove useful on 'great lakes' as they are used well beyond
that already.(... a bit like suggesting 'Portsmouth' numbers are only applied
on the sea or even just near the town of Portsmouth). It is
obvious that a different group of handicappers are involved
and their model is naturally different and very possibly better .... so
just maybe the sample 'engineering' applied or lack of it in the PY method
is at best just flawed (or could do with a real improvements /
refinements if you want a more diplomatic interpretation) Have these different groups ever formally met and discussed the
subject ? Naive it may be but Joe
Public may at least hope for some cross flow of ideas ... Or is it the case of ‘not
invented here’ and inevitably interpreting all possible changes or alternatives
as challenges or threats rather than as opportunities to learn / improve ? Handicap racing is significantly more important today than 40 or 50 years ago. IMO these groups should formally meet and discuss. It does and should matter. |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 1:09pm
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Never said it was perfect, far from it in fact, that’s why I pushers for adjustment.
Yes more groups need to band together and discuss and adopt mechanisms to process adjustments, I pushed for similar, the feedback I got from tin hats was either that of don’t mess with my number as it’s unfair (despite being shown methodology) or stats “gurus” banging on about not enough data but still ef and jeff anyway that they have a bad number. I think people just want to moan and have excuses ready at hand rather than do the work. It’s an imperfect world, people will race what ever the system, have a moan and continue anyway,. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 1:12pm
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However you look at it handicapping is, and always was, about number crunching. If there was the will it would be easy enough (if hugely time consuming, any statistics undergrads out there looking for a project?) to take historic GL results and apply PY numbers to the elapsed times and vice versa and analyse the differences. I suspect it would reflect the choices made by the handicappers, the GL system trying to handicap the boats potential by prioritising the best sailors results and PY committee the performance of average sailor.
WRT adjustments, maybe it would be more acceptable to the 'guy on the pond' if the RYA published three different sets of numbers, say "Small Lake", "Great Lake" and "Tidal". The break points would have to be arbitrary to a degree but the decision as to which set were most appropriate could be left to the clubs (have a vote at an AGM if it is not obvious). That would help average out the CSF as some classes at my club have surprising adjustments (Solo +10, Laser and Radial -11, the Laser sailors are pretty good and sail in the handicap fleet on Wednesdays and Saturdays). ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 2:07pm
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Not perfect, but not deserving of the bile thrown at it, either.
The GL handicaps have been discussed on here before, and even the creators have said they are not out to replace the yardstick system (they use it, after all) but to do exactly what is suggested by the PYAG. Adjust to suit. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 3:28pm
"Small Lake", "Great Lake" and "Tidal".....this would be an improvement on the existing system IMO. When suggested before some folk asked what about estuary/river clubs that sail on the tide? I guess it would be difficult to satisfy everyone. It's tempting, when thinking of new ways to to do things to try and make the perfect system that takes all things into consideration and then, when realising it can't be done, to give up. It would seem to me that dealing with one aspect at a time would be more realistic. When 3-4 seperate lists were suggested before the conclusion seemed to be that the PY Com did not have enough data to produce sensible figures for different types of venue. Which brings me back to my earlier point. Whatever system is in place (including the existing one) it will require sufficient data from a broad range of venues......It's not happening now and as it stands it won't happen in the future either. The part of the system that all else relies on is broken for many venues. The PY Com have made great moves to make it as easy as possible with electronic returns, it couldn't be simpler and yet there is still insufficient data.......... Could this problem be solved using punitive measures? Financial Measures? Supportive measures? Contractual Measures? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 3:37pm
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Only about a quarter of clubs send in returns, this could do with improving. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 3:49pm
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It is simple, but as shown on here, that isn't the perception - parts of the system are quite opaque, mainly because the RYA website isn't the easiest to navigate.
So, would better communication between the rya and clubs about the system help? I know the rya have everything there for the asking. How do you get clubs to ask? Must be pushed by members who are using the system, surely? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 4:14pm
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Hopefully all the big clubs are inputting data, I don't think my club submits data. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 5:56pm
The PY committee already recommend adjustments on an individual club basis so they obviously think the data is sufficient, what I'm suggesting is averaging that data over all the clubs sailing on broadly similar waters and applying it to the base PNs. The distinctions between the types of water should be obvious in most cases though would not cover all situations, however most tidal waters would favour fast boats which in turn tend to perform better when given room to stretch their legs and rivers and small lakes would favour slower, quick tacking boats. Call them "Restricted Water", "Open Water" and "Tidal" if you prefer, all sailing areas could be fitted into those three categories*. The purpose would be to reduce the skewing caused when a club has a number of fast sailors in a particular class and to remove the need the decisions on how much adjustment to make (based on the 'confidence' factor) or, even whether to adjust at all being made by 'Joe Solo' the handicap sec** and hopefully result in more clubs using the adjusted numbers. * Clubs would confirm their water type in the returns and where a water may be between two categories, say a medium sized lake either an independent adjudication would be offered (a map and photographs of the venue would probably be sufficient evidence) to avoid Joe getting it in the neck again or the club could ask members to vote on it. ** Poor Joe gets all the flak from all the members and quits the job after a year or decides it's all too much trouble and sticks to the published PNs the following year. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 6:17pm
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On a 20 acre lake would a 'Enterprise' be faster in real time, than, say a '505'?
Same boats, 'Rutland water'? Same boats, big range, Sea course? This is the problem with using PY without local adjustment. Ent' would win first race, both have top crews. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 6:35pm
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Tidal is not quite that black and white. Estuary and harbour tides (Chichester harbour - HISC, Itchenor, Salcombe, Exe) are very different from the open channel venues (Shoreham, Lancing, Mounts Bay. It’s a minefield. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 6:42pm
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Formula to apply for these two boats over first three courses, plus, the tidal estuaries, add in very light wind and a howler. You would be very popular. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 8:19pm
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Noah, tidal may be different in a variety of venues, but wouldn't an average tidal yardstick be better than one including all the non tidal venues? If you really sail somewhere that out on a limb, then the only option would be club numbers. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 8:59pm
Yes I sail on a lake and yes the py works at my current club as it has worked at every inland club I have ever sailed at at . As it does for the vast majority of sailors across the country. I totally understand it works less well on the sea . But the ability to change the numbers is in the clubs hands and plenty of sea clubs do change them to suit local conditions. In no way does anything on this forum scare me . It’s just half a dozen people expelling hot air. Sometimes it’s fun and interesting and sometimes it isn’t. At no point have ridiculed or pored scorn on anyone other than grf, and he gives it out and expects it back . All I have done is point people asking questions to the the correct people to answer the question . It’s a discussion and I have given my point of view . In no way has this closed down this thread judging by the amount of posts on this thread after your post ,on a weekend . I suggest you follow grf advice except people have views different to your own or scroll on by .
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 9:30pm
My point exactly. Not trying to 'improve' the accuracy of the numbers, just to eliminate one of the reasons why many clubs don't apply the recommended adjustments. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 9:59pm
So what would be be better? 3 or 4 sets of numbers that span most venue types. or 1 set of numbers that sit up one end of the spectrum. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:04pm
Probabilistic PYs. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:11pm
I do remember this, but need reminding of the premise, as in my head it has turned into something Douglas Adams would have been proud of! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:40pm
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What about a length of legs handicap? Long legs suit fast boats, short legs suit slow boats. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:51pm
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Haha!
1. Accept that no class PY will ever be perfectly known. Small sample, tidal effects, etc etc. 2. Therefore accept that there is uncertainty in what PY should be used. 3. Therefore accept that the Laser PY (for example) is not precisely (or consistently) 1100. 4. We can be reasonably (95%) confident that it is somewhere between 1080 and 1110. 5. An OK (PY1104) will have a bigger 95% confidence spread due to fewer boats and more uncertainty e.g. 1070 to 1130 6. Currently if a Laser and OK finish at exactly the same time the OK wins and scores 1 point and the Laser 2. 7. But the OK may actually be quicker (if a fairer PY is actually 1095) and so there is a chance it shouldn’t have won. 8. Instead, calculate the corrected time for the range of PYs and weight the result. 9. e.g. if there is a 90% chance of being 1st and 10% chance of 2nd, score 1.1 points. If there is a 50/50 chance of first or second score 1.5 points. 10. The further ahead you finish the more likely that you actually deserved the win (rather than being gifted it due to dodgy PY) and so the lower you will score. |