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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 24 Nov 20 at 8:50am
So, at what point do we say "horses for courses" and accept that in real life, no handicapping, some boats are better than others on small ponds/big sea courses, and accept that choosing a boat is a personal thing and the RYA can't be blamed for it?
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 20 at 9:01am
Some of the best "racing" I had this year was the informal sprint races where some folks rocked up and did rabbit starts with a simple one leg course. The faster boats did one or two turns to even things up (good excuse to practice doing turns efficiently). No one cared who actually won or lost and we would do 15 or 20 starts and races were for 5 minutes. Was the essence of why I love sailing.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 20 at 10:02am
Rupert, will never happen, clubs who don't adapt PY, will still blame RYA, they will say, they, should sort it, they, have enough money off us.
Wants some whizz kid to come up with a algorithm, their was a programmer who came up with one that could seemlessly flow any two tunes into a smooth flow.
Robert
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 20 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Mozzy

I think the PY system is perfect. 

It produces results that are just about recognisable enough to incentivise people to go sailing. But nowhere near good enough that anyone would take a bad result to heart. Seems pretty much perfect for amateaur sport. 

In the last 10 years of championship sailing I've never had one finish outside the top 60%. I've not finished inside the top 60% in the last three pursuit races done in the 800. Despite being blessed with blinded self confidence and a titanic ego these results can be little icebergs to my impregnable iron skin. I was forced to spend 20 minutes explaining to a Tera sailor last year just how statistically improbable their beating of me was. But for some reason when they started crying I didn't feel like a winner. 


LOL Very Creative, Just when I was thinking there was no imagination left on these forums along comes a gem. It shines like a pearl in the crapper. Wink
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 20 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Rupert

So, at what point do we say "horses for courses" and accept that in real life, no handicapping, some boats are better than others on small ponds/big sea courses, and accept that choosing a boat is a personal thing and the RYA can't be blamed for it?


When hell freezes over given the reality some forumites exist in - the one where the PYAG sits around a cauldron, cackling, while they plan the ruination of GRFs latest chosen class...

Originally posted by H2

Some of the best "racing" I had this year was the informal sprint races where some folks rocked up and did rabbit starts with a simple one leg course. The faster boats did one or two turns to even things up (good excuse to practice doing turns efficiently). No one cared who actually won or lost and we would do 15 or 20 starts and races were for 5 minutes. Was the essence of why I love sailing.


+100 the sport would be much better if 'results' were taken far less seriously.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 12:21am
It's racing though, the whole point is 'results'! Wink What is wrong is when 'results' become 'win at all cost'. Thankfully almost all of the dinghy (and windsurf) racing I have experienced falls far from that and, while many of us like to complain about our handicap few will resort to cheating as a way to compensate. I can't think of any of my racing friends and for whom Elvstrom's statement “You haven’t won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors” does not still hold up.



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 26 Nov 20 at 12:21am
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 2:19am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


It's racing though, the whole point is 'results'! [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" alt="]


is it though? Are results not just a (highly imperfect) measure of competence in a sport and gaining that competence is the real reward?

Interesting the positive comments re: personal handicap racing above - a closer fit to the idea of personal bests/achievement found in other sports? And more motivating to at all levels of a fleet as it challenges the groundhog day pecking orders of standard py (or class) racing?
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 8:40am
I have belonged to a club that ran one race series per year on a personal handicap basis with PYs adjusted based on your results. It was fun and well attended at Cirrus has mentioned (although different club to his) but where it went wrong - in my view - is that the adjustments were crafted in such a way as to almost guarantee that one of the weaker sailors would win the series. Personally I felt this demoted the better sailors as they knew it was impossible to win and devalued the win for the eventual victor who, like a kid at primary, got a reward for being mediocre and kind of knew it. Better would be a personal handicap where if you did your PB then you won, if that makes sense?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 9:22am
How do you measure PB in sailing?

But yes, personal handicaps can be demotivational for the fast sailors and false for the slow, but if used correctly can maybe narrow the gap in skill level in the long term?

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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 9:59am
Perhaps try a league, use the results from previous season, have no more than ten teams/individuals per league, will encourage lower leagues to try for promotion at end of season, two go up two down, each first and second of their league get a trophy.
Robert
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