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H2 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 8:47am
I genuinely do not know why people get so heated about PYs. I choose to sail in a handicap fleet, it was one of the factors I weighed up when I decided which boat to buy and I did so knowing that the system was flawed but frankly I do not really mind, the difference it makes is probably not as large as the errors I make when out sailing - the missed shift, late for the line, failing to hike as hard as I could. When I go to the bigger "great lakes" events I set a target based on the conditions (i.e. top third) and enjoy trying to hit my target. I think you guys are way over thinking all this!
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 8:57am
The Peaky probability postulation is wonderful. I do have an issue that it can't be done with paper pencil and calculator quickly after a race. Mind, some ROs struggle with getting the sums right with the current system.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 9:51am
Originally posted by H2

I genuinely do not know why people get so heated about PYs.!


I won't say I get exactly heated... frustration is a better word.

I get frustrated because of the apathy

I get frustrated because of the attitude that it is 'only' a 2nd rate activity.

I get frustrated when the boats I race against on equalish terms having accepted one version of their system suddenly edicts that I have to start a minute behind the pals I used to struggle against on equal terms in a pursuit race.

I get frustrated when I get a new boat and I can't get a rating for it, by simply stating it's length weight sail size etc.

I get frustrated because with just a little effort it could be so much better, if only the folk running and organising the system were as enthusiastic and enjoyed using it as much as I.

Edited by iGRF - 23 Nov 20 at 9:53am
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 10:09am
I think your only choice here Graeme is whether to get frustrated or whether to just accept it is not going to change! Over the last few years I ended up on the committee of a sailing club and for my sins responsible for sailing which included the handicap committee. Traditionally we had been a club that took the RYA at their word and applied changes to the published PY numbers based on local conditions. This was done using data but it also created many issues, especially when there were one or two boats from a given class as it was hard to stop the PY becoming a personal number and we had instances where newcomers who were better sailors had a huge advantage as a result of previous poor sailing of those in a given class. Personally I still found a way to win enough series to make it interesting and on those occasions "where I was robbed" I had the satisfaction of knowing that I could have won if the PY was back to standard numbers! But whilst I tried to change it I soon realised that there was little interest in doing so - it was the equivalent of creating a level playing field where regardless of ability all had a chance to win. To me that was the final nail in the coffin so I moved to a club that just uses RYA PYs!

Edited by H2 - 23 Nov 20 at 10:11am
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 10:28am
Originally posted by H2

I genuinely do not know why people get so heated about PYs. I choose to sail in a handicap fleet, it was one of the factors I weighed up when I decided which boat to buy and I did so knowing that the system was flawed but frankly I do not really mind, the difference it makes is probably not as large as the errors I make when out sailing - the missed shift, late for the line, failing to hike as hard as I could. When I go to the bigger "great lakes" events I set a target based on the conditions (i.e. top third) and enjoy trying to hit my target. I think you guys are way over thinking all this!



Sadly, on tidal waters that is not the case.The extra unseen penalty of sailing an average race on a 2 knot conveyor belt can mean as much as a 5 minutes ( If memory serves and being conservative with estimate ;-) ) lost for slow boats compared to a fast boat. If it's light winds the penalty will be even bigger. It's an insidious, unseen and unnoticed effect that effects all boats to some degree or other. The severity of the penalty does depend on boat class and wind strength obviously.

Also some sailors have little choice which boat they sail. For youngsters in Toppers on tidal waters the system is almost entirely broken as it is for anyone who has to sail a slower boat.

Open sea clubs number in their hundreds (I would think). This is not a minority type of venue. 




Edited by Sussex Lad - 23 Nov 20 at 10:29am
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Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 10:55am
Ultimately I think there is a fundamental paradox with the whole PY debate:

If we have a simple system it won't be accurate.
If we make the system sophisticated enough to be tolerably accurate then how it works can no longer be transparent, thus people will become increasingly suspicious that hidden agenda are baked into the calculations.



Edited by ohFFsake - 23 Nov 20 at 10:56am
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by H2

I genuinely do not know why people get so heated about PYs. I choose to sail in a handicap fleet, it was one of the factors I weighed up when I decided which boat to buy and I did so knowing that the system was flawed but frankly I do not really mind, the difference it makes is probably not as large as the errors I make when out sailing - the missed shift, late for the line, failing to hike as hard as I could. When I go to the bigger "great lakes" events I set a target based on the conditions (i.e. top third) and enjoy trying to hit my target. I think you guys are way over thinking all this!



Sadly, on tidal waters that is not the case.The extra unseen penalty of sailing an average race on a 2 knot conveyor belt can mean as much as a 5 minutes ( If memory serves and being conservative with estimate ;-) ) lost for slow boats compared to a fast boat. If it's light winds the penalty will be even bigger. It's an insidious, unseen and unnoticed effect that effects all boats to some degree or other. The severity of the penalty does depend on boat class and wind strength obviously.

Also some sailors have little choice which boat they sail. For youngsters in Toppers on tidal waters the system is almost entirely broken as it is for anyone who has to sail a slower boat.

Open sea clubs number in their hundreds (I would think). This is not a minority type of venue. 



I believe that Hayling Island has modified the PY to take this into account. Its detailed on their website. If you club is not willing to do this and you sail a slower boat in the tide then you are right but that is why I suggest applying the "where should I finish today based on the conditions and my boat" and that becomes your target. If you beat it you win! Alternatively, sail a faster boat or find a fleet to sail in are probably the only other ways forward.
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by H2



I believe that Hayling Island has modified the PY to take this into account. Its detailed on their website. If you club is not willing to do this and you sail a slower boat in the tide then you are right but that is why I suggest applying the "where should I finish today based on the conditions and my boat" and that becomes your target. If you beat it you win! Alternatively, sail a faster boat or find a fleet to sail in are probably the only other ways forward.



Yes Hayling have a tidal correction PY as do Lancing and a few other clubs. All different

Calcs can be arranged as a formula to adjust the published list for tide but there are other factors involved and with an across the board adjustment some boats may be further advantaged/disadvantaged by a tidal correction.

The only way to do it is as the PY team do it. I don't have the data or perhaps more importantly I don't have the perceived authority. 

......and as I said some don't have a free choice in boats because age and weight dictate the selection.




Edited by Sussex Lad - 23 Nov 20 at 12:47pm
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 4:40pm
I think the PY system is perfect. 

It produces results that are just about recognisable enough to incentivise people to go sailing. But nowhere near good enough that anyone would take a bad result to heart. Seems pretty much perfect for amateaur sport. 

In the last 10 years of championship sailing I've never had one finish outside the top 60%. I've not finished inside the top 60% in the last three pursuit races done in the 800. Despite being blessed with blinded self confidence and a titanic ego these results can be little icebergs to my impregnable iron skin. I was forced to spend 20 minutes explaining to a Tera sailor last year just how statistically improbable their beating of me was. But for some reason when they started crying I didn't feel like a winner. 


Edited by Mozzy - 23 Nov 20 at 4:42pm
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 20 at 5:14pm
You kill me Tom!! Thanks for making me giggle

Edited by H2 - 23 Nov 20 at 5:14pm
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