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Pointless PY Pondering
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Joined: 08 Jun 18
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:10pm
Think the burden of proof is on the one making the assertions otherwise debate becomes meaningless.

Gonna leave you with it.

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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:43pm
Like democracy, I would suggest that the PY system is the worst possible way of handicapping boats...

...apart from all the others that have been tried!
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epicfail View Drop Down
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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 20 at 10:50pm
Maybe I shouldn't have asked the question; I guess the PY debate is a never ending saga.

The view that there is a level of pressure exerted to influence the numbers allocated to some classes is interesting. However I don't see why anyone would go to the trouble. Does a perceived favourable PY number lead to increased sales of new boats? If there is no significant financial advantage to the interested parties what is the point?

 
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 8:49am
That is exactly what some people say. For the life of me I can't see the logic but there y'go.
Surely if a new class arrives people are attracted by it's looks and likely sailing characteristics, to then speculate "how it would do" in handicap racing seems a leap too far to me.
Perhaps I'm the one who is out of step with the dinghy world but then I see myself as someone who races to sail not someone who sails to race. 
I rarely see myself as racing against other sailors, I'm racing against the conditions and my own inadequacies. Therefore "how I do" in PY racing is little more than a rough guide, Class racing tells a truer tale but even then I very rarely if ever sail to purposely slow another sailor. 
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 9:06am
Any new class (and clubs) should accept that whilst the performance is unknown, the yardstick should be used in reverse. The boat should race, times taken, then crew skill taken into account to get a starting point for the number. Do this in enough places, races, sailors, you start to get a worthwhile experimental number. Accept that for a few months, actual results will be meaningless. Pretty easy with a boat like the Aero where people with known skill in Lasers and Solos may have jumped into them. Harder for a one off, which is why I guess toys get thrown.

Does it really matter that you can't win a tin cup for a short while if it means creating a fairer yardstick over time?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:25am
Data protection may be the reason why RYA group are not listed publicly.
Robert
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:49am
More likely so they don't get death threats from people who "know they should be winning, but the PAYG have it in for them"
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 10:56am
From a conflict of interest point of view, not too much to ask what classes those on the committee sail, surely?  If only to avoid unfounded allegations.
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 11:25am
The average club handicap race has a almost new £25k Merlin, a ten year old GP and a Laser with a sail bought last century. How does any handicap system deal with that? - and no- the slowest sailor may not be in the cheapest boat.

Its great to be alone in picking out the right side of the beat, feeling the " bite" as you come out of the perfect roll tack and catching the first wave on the reach. The rest is just stuff for afterwards.

Enjoy the sailing and if you are desperate to find your rank and speed level, do some Opens and major events next year
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 20 at 11:44am
Originally posted by iGRF

To call me out or get me to remove the tinfoil, you have to provide proof that the points I made are not fact.

1) No transparency
2) Delberate destruction of embryonic classes.
3) Favoritiism to others.
4) Give me a list of the committee members (Oh and the classes they represent of course.)

Simples, not much to ask in 2021 when under the freedom of information act I can get much more important Government information..


1 agreed more transparency the better
2 where’s your proof?
3 where’s your proof? For it to happen it must of been of great financial benefit to someone, where’s the paper trail?
4 why do you need names, won’t classes represented do? It’s a bully tactic to demand names.

You can get more Important info from the the gov, you’ve kind of nailed yourself there, it’s not that important in the grand scheme.

For the record:

I was on my club com changing handicaps, the tin hatters came out in force despite running to rya guidelines and made enough of a stink that i decided to concede after actual threats were made to me. Can you blame people for not wanting to bow to these aggressive types and give over their personal Info. Get real! It has been explained over and over, advice given and taken, constructive elements added and for what? Puss and vinegar. Set up your system, work at making it a success, make it the go to formula and make the world a better place if it’s really that good. And if it is people will flock and everyone pat you on the back, because deep down that’s what you want. In short be constructive not destructive.
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