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epicfail View Drop Down
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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pointless PY Pondering
    Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 7:38pm
Yes I know its all based on race returns but are there obvious boat design issues that might account for the differences. Is it primarily down to weight and length?
 
The Streaker has less sail area than the Europe and Lightning but is longer. Does this partly explain it's quicker PY. It's also quicker than a Solo despite the Solo having more sail - but I guess the Solo is a bit of a lardy. Perhaps all Streaker racers really good?

The Lightning is longer than the Europe has the same sail area but the hull is 9kg heavier, Is that enough to explain the slower PY than the Europe? 

Or perhaps I'm a fool to ask?  Big smile
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 8:09pm
In sub planing conditions the biggest single factor is waterline length, as more racing probably takes place in sub planing conditions it has a disproportionate effect on the PN. This is reflected in what has been dubbed "The Fuller Number" somewhere in this thread
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 8:31pm
The PY as it stands is really a bit of a farce and doesn't bear any relationship to a boats actual speed through the water, it's a mix of results based on the volume and skill level of users, manipulated as far as I can tell by a committee of, with the best will in the world toward them, agenda driven folk primarily interested in protecting certain classes, being either deliberately mainpulated themselves into favouring others, and hampering new boats wishing to enter the 'fray' with punitive rating or they are just plain stupid. All under the guise of using returns from mainly inland clubs which in itself sways the results towards that end. (Has the Laser really gotten so much slower in the last five years with it's new equipment, sails, masts and XD system or are there a couple of the Laserati on said committee)

It is a very bad system, they are either completely incompetent or under restrictions placed upon them by our oppressive Governing body and we suffer as a result. Short of starting a new system under a body wishing to actually promote racing under a fairer more scientific system which will still be wrong in v arious wetaher conditions, I despair for us all.

Finally and the worse, we don't even know who these people are, other than a sneaking suspicion they're RS Employees according to the favorable Aero handicap.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Nov 20 at 8:37pm
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epicfail View Drop Down
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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 9:02pm
Sailing is an amazing sport - so many variables, the PY system has a hard job to do. I'm a bit rubbish and sail a 80's Europe with a tin mast, I suspect it's a bit slower than more recent examples with carbon rigs.

I always cross the line in front of a chap sailing an Aero 7 yet only rarely get ahead of a Lightning. I can be ahead of some Lasers but always get beaten by two others. I does not stop me having a great time. The skill of the helm is obviously a massive part of the deal - I suppose trying to understand some of these results is pointless. I have yet to sail against another Europe, something I will put right next year, then it might be time to give up!
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 9:52pm
Grf  I think your  tin foil hat must be on too tight. The py system works as well as any handicap system can. As so many people have tried to explain to you . 
You post so much interesting and/or funny stuff. 
Then you post this conspiracy theory b@@@@ks that makes you sound like a flat earth/anti vaccine type person . 
Please please please stay away from yardsticks and stick with the stuff you do so well .
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 10:51pm
So, and I'm not denying the presence of tinfoil (it also wards of Covid19), what exactly do you dispute in that little, I thought quite gentle admonishment of the PYsystem.?

Is the group transparent? No.
Do they demolish new classes? Yes
Has the RS Aero escaped that demolition? Most defnitely.
Do we even know who they are? Some people do, some people don't.

40 years of nearly Marine Industry experience I'm afraid has taught me to be extremely cynical when it comes to the 'old boy' and 'not so old boy' networks that orbit the RYA.

So I'll stick with the Tinfoil for now..

Edited by iGRF - 18 Nov 20 at 10:52pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 11:18pm
How do you think your new boat should be treated?
PY committee have to have something to work on?
You must know by now who some of the committee are.
Robert
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 20 at 11:22pm
Did the Aero escape, or just get enough returns quickly enough for the yardstick to be not too far out?

Yes, the system is driven by results. Yes, that can cause issues. No, the Laser hasn't got slower. It used to have a sh*t yardstick from when very few changes were made, though I know you don't think so.

The Europe has a harsh handicap for light winds inland, but I think makes up for it in a blow on the sea. The one I don't understand is the British Moth. Which club handicap races BMs and never has any wind on a Sunday? Otherwise, why is it so punitive?
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Rupert

Did the Aero escape


Really? You have to ask? You can't be that naive surely...
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:14am
Originally posted by 423zero

How do you think your new boat should be treated?
PY committee have to have something to work on?
You must know by now who some of the committee are.


Nope, I haven't a clue, I do know Dougalldog did try for a serious journalistic approach but they f**ked him off.

The fact they don't rotate.. or maybe they do, I honestly don't know, but they should, whoever they are they aint doing it right, but since when did anything managed by a committee succeed...

My new boat? I'm past caring what they do, and I haven't had time to even bung it through my spreadsheet, which I can't find anyway it was that long ago I was messing with it, it will probably get the Icon treatment since I don't have the clout RS do, but it wont matter if the boat is fun to sail, like the Farr, that hasn't got a yardstick either. It's their probem not mine, it's they who are not representing the sport they are supposed to be governing.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Nov 20 at 12:20am
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