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Late starter View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:04am
Originally posted by 423zero

ILCA will totally dominate single hander sales, Aero caught on due to problems with Laser, now its sorted, Laser and ILCA sales will unfortunately decimate them.
The ILCA/Laser is a great little boat that I have a lot of affection for, but it's 50 year old technology and in ILCA form is hugely overpriced IMHO. Tend to agree with Cirrus that the ILCA will be a niche boat for squaddies etc,  as a club sailor if I were going to spend close on £7k I'd buy a nearly new Phantom, Aero, Solo or whatever floated my boat. At club level £3.5k for an LPE replica is interesting but personally I don't think I could overlook the ethics of sailing a counterfeit.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:04am

The market will decide if  ILCA/Laser 'Siamese twins' will both prosper, one will kill the other or both will die given enough rope and a few years. 

 

The fact that this dysfunctional family have wasted so much time, money, and drive while boring the pants off the rest of the world with their soap opera drama has hardly helped their collective cause (or is that non-collective causes ?).  Did nobody propose a reconciliation effort might just have be best for all concerned at any point ?

 

Place your bets now Ladies and Gentlemen, choose your favourite snacks and refreshments, settle down in your favourite seating - this box set still has some way to run yet !!  (Try not to fall asleep though)   Still think it looks like an argument between two pugnacious ‘crusties’ who have forgotten exactly how tenuous their hold really is in this market.  No supplier in any market has an absolute right to survive - and it is time to stop behaving as if there were, however hard.
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:08am
There are loads of abandoned Laser hulls sat in most dinghy parks.

Other than by applying honesty and decency do you think that the desperate removing the plaque and sticking it on a current Laser can be prevented ?

Having had 4 lasers over the years I should know if the number is marked elsewhere.
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:49am
How are LPE numbering their Lasers? The can't be consecutive with the last "World Sailing approved' Lasers as they would them be sharing numbers with the first ILCA dinghies...

I believe the number used to be moulded into the gel coat under the bow towing eye.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 06 Oct 20 at 11:50am
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:04pm
The figures for sales are on here somewhere in a recent thread, sure its something like 5 boats a week for Aero and several hundreds for LPE Laser, this was UK figures, so hardly similar sales.
LPE Laser is only a replica to UKLA, Laser/LPE have their own class, not a replica to them.
Robert
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Late starter


At club level £3.5k for an LPE replica is interesting but personally I don't think I could overlook the ethics of sailing a counterfeit.


Sailing a counterfeit?
So you don't worry at all about the 'ethics' of World Sailing in all this?
I thought the common feeling about WS is that they're right up there with FIFA on the 'ethics' front, and even from reading this thread, it's fairly obvious not all is right given the reaction from the Italians (not that I'm holding italians up as the last bastion of ethics) when all you want is a nice familiar little boat that lots of others sail to race around your local puddle on a sunday morning?
Give me the counterfeit and knowing what I do know about the machinations and corruption at the top level of sailing governance down the years, my conscience will be clear as crystal.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:09pm
Just to add, on Laser performance website, there is a photo of three Lasers and they are numbered one, two and three.
Robert
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

There are loads of abandoned Laser hulls sat in most dinghy parks.

Other than by applying honesty and decency do you think that the desperate removing the plaque and sticking it on a current Laser can be prevented ?

Having had 4 lasers over the years I should know if the number is marked elsewhere.

Yes to comply with the RCD and type approvals each hull must carry a unique Hull Identification Number.

Taking a HIN from an older boat and sticking it on a new one opens up a huge can of worms legally with regards to RCD and Type Approvals which are legally enforceable in law unlike the contract spats. Not to mention opening themselves up to all sorts of litigation should something happen and the doctored hull not comply.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 1:41pm
Blimey - surely we should leave the 'family' to their own internal quables and look at something a bit more interesting than this wretched shambles now.  History is not on the side of any organisation or individuals so distracted from reality. 

Darwin got it right .... Adapt or die and forget about any previous glories or your versions of them, they are all very soon forgotton and unimportant.   

The Laser concept was a disrupting one when it first emerged and had a revolutionary effect on the sector.  I even owned a string of 6 of them way back, and was a strong advocate for the class then.   It is all so disappointing now.   There must have been short of adults in the room when this self-inflicted decline started and they are still at it today.   In a regular company any independent shareholders would have sold out long ago when they realised they were wasting their time as much as their money.


Talk about re-arranging the deckchairs .... !!


Edited by Cirrus - 06 Oct 20 at 1:43pm
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Interesting points raised about sales numbers and laser supply problems. 
I was led to believe that laser supply problems only really effected the USA and was not really a problem in the uk and Europe . Does anyone know different? 
Also it would be very interesting to see the sales figures of the aero and the laser in the UK and compare them to the world wide figures.
I would guess the uk sales figures for the aero and laser would be quite close but worldwide the laser must sell many many times more . 
Can anyone add some facts to my ponderings  Smile


Based purely on my observation, the numbers between Laser and Aero sales are skewed as many Training Schools, Holiday companies etc buy fleets of Lasers (LPE are significantly cheaper and would be a major decision factor) and less so Aero's - maybe 1 or 2. You would need a more detailed analysis based on buyer demographic. Private buyers would be a good stat.

As an example, a year ago, Wildwind holidays replaced and bought 10 Lasers for their base in Vassiliki, whereas they still have only their 2 Aero's. I was at Wildwind last year  :-)


Edited by Chris_H - 06 Oct 20 at 3:38pm
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