Ovington Laser
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13658
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 8:17pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ovington Laser
Posted By: tink
Subject: Ovington Laser
Date Posted: 24 Aug 20 at 5:57pm
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From the Ovington FB feed: ‘ All a bit of a last minute rush to have everything in place to be at WPNSA for the UKLA Nationals for the ILCA 4, 6 & 7... Builders plaque, World Sailing plaque, Recreational Craft Directive certified and we even managed to get Class flags delivered in time. Chris Turner Ovington MD will be on site Friday and Saturday to answer any questions...’ ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Replies:
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 26 Aug 20 at 10:38pm
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I love Sam Whaleys comment
“I have come to the conclusion it’s a laser” Or another quote from a club member who was down there “It’s very white” Time will tell if the rake numbers are consistent and the build quality is more consistent. Or, the issues are more to do with the building manual. But then, they do seem more robust than my aero. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 2:08pm
| ........... |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 3:33pm
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Or is becoming a Laser builder likely to become a bit of a poisoned chalice?
Nice to hear that your old boat is still being used in anger! |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 4:49pm
| Its been ages since I last sailed a Laser but I loved my time in the class. There's still a good demand for old boats too. I've just sold my daughters 130k sail number oldie but goodie and I think I could have sold it 5x over. Hope the recent issues are behind the class and look forward to seeing the new boats. |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 27 Aug 20 at 6:00pm
| ..... |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 28 Aug 20 at 8:46am
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Its true that very few hulls remain as competitive as a Laser for as long, pity the sails need replacing every few months but at least most people at club level just buy a non-class version! ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 30 Sep 20 at 4:17pm
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Just announced SailingFast will be Ovi's ILCA sales agent. £6,750 for standard rig with carbon top section - no details on the remaining spec but presumably that's full XD Contrast £7,440 for an Aero7 and £6,809 for a D-zero at today's exchange rate (€7.490) I suspect they'll sell well initially, to squaddies (and wanabes) and those that have been holding back for ages whilst the dust settled on the disputes. Don't think I'll be replacing my 20 year old, million-miler with one though, particularly as its only used occasionally; the RS100 is infinitely more fun ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Sep 20 at 7:56pm
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Looking from the outside in, I am trying to work out why you wouldn’t buy a Laser XD with latest sail anD carbon top mast at £ 3,867? The attraction of Lasers back in the day was that they were cheap and cheerful, and given that knock off sails are accepted by most club fleets, why wouldn’t lots of sailors home in on the Laser product ... what justifies the extra £ 3k? ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Sep 20 at 7:59pm
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Do I assume that even a club which doesn't allow replica sails would allow a Laser, built by Laser, to race as a Laser, even if the world governing body says only the version named after themselves can be used? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 30 Sep 20 at 8:34pm
I would assume if they wanted a measurement button on the sails. They would want a world sailing plaque on the hull. That’s the important bit. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 30 Sep 20 at 9:21pm
But will you be able to sell it later? how many clubs will not accept what are now knock-offs (ours won't) most though who would want to do business with Rastegar who failed to pay Bruce Kirby how many millions in rightful dues? Is that not theft? we all have to draw our own moral lines, but I would not give R a brass farthing On the other hand, £7k (cover, trolley etc) for a Laser/ILCA his, as you say, no longer great value. You could run a fab second hand RS100 on the circuit for 2 or 3 years on that, new res every year and all ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 7:38am
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LPE will loads of them to sailing centres worldwide. The tooling wiped its face decades ago, and the boats no longer need to be built to the tolerance level of the construction manual. As a major racing class the medium term future of the ILCA is pretty uncertain and I wonder if Ovi are trying to recoup tooling costs asap? I cant see £3k difference even with the carbon (What percentage fibreglass I wonder?) mast section.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 9:01am
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UK boats are ILCA's? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 9:28am
Given that you're saved £3k you could sell for much less than a similar 'official Laser', I reckon initial depreciation will be much less (in £'s) than an ILCA/Kirby Torch... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 9:29am
All new 'official Lasers' are now ILCAs 'cos LPE owns the Laser trademark. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 1:40pm
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Devoti built ILCAs will soon be available in the UK I am told so more than one builder might increase competition on price a little. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 11:56am
If a club doesn't allow replica Laser sails why on earth would they allow replica Laser hulls? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 12:47pm
| It’s not a replica Laser though, is it? It’s a genuine Laser, just not an ILCA boat. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 1:36pm
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If it doesn’t have the WS plate on it it’s not a class legal boat, LPE boats don’t have this. LPE can legally sell you a boat called a Laser in the uk and the USA but that doesn’t mean it class legal or you can use it in class evens. The whole thing is a big mess, mostly but not totally caused by LPE themselves and the fact all Olympic class have to comply with FRAND .
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 1:47pm
| A new LP boat is a class legal boat, but for the TLC class rather than the ILCA class. I wonder how many clubs have rules so carefully worded that they allow one and prohibit the other in what might generically be called the “Laser fleet”. I know mine doesn’t. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 2:18pm
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True but TLC is a new class , with no paying members , no constitution and has not run an event anywhere. Throw in a builder selling boats at cost and the ongoing court case in the USA ( Jim C is the expert on this ) I know which one I would bet on , long term. But on the other hand I am sure we will be seeing the new LPE boats around boats parks for years to come . As I said it’s all very sad and I am glad I no longer have a connection with the class so don’t have a dog in this fight .
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 2:26pm
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Totally agree, just pointing out that most club fleets don’t have written rules linking them to ILCA so it would be dodgy ground banning TLC boats joining in. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 3:25pm
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I wonder if someone would be good enough to supply a glossary to us ill informed regarding all facts Laser and the various acronyms and initals.
ILCA TLC LP LPE FRAND ??? Probably to much to ask how it got to be the mess that it's now in, I gave up following after the Torch affair. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 5:04pm
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ILCA 1. International Laser Class Association. Certificates boats built by long term Australian and Japanese builders plus new builders entering the market eg Devoti, Ovington. 2. New class name for boats certificated by the ILCA. TLC The Laser Class Organisation set up, apparently with money from Laser Performance LLC, by some disaffected officers from ILCA and other national laser class associations. Talks big about becoming a new international class, but that won't happen unless ILCA actually collapses since World Sailing won't support two CAs. Certificates new Laser Performance LLC Lasers. LP Probably Laser Performance LLC. US registered company that builds dinghies using the Laser trademark in Europe. Set up fairly recently. LPE Laser Performance Europe. Dormant company that used to build Lasers. No capital, no employees. Lost long running court case and owes millions in fines. FRAND Principle resulting from European competition legislation that has the effect of requiring Olympic class dinghies to be able to be sold by new vendors under fair and reasonable terms from the intellectual property owners. |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 5:40pm
How many boats racing at typical club racing level have a valid measurement certificate, with the owner a being member of the class association? (Not many at our club)
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:29pm
Thanks Jim, so TLC, is that a rogue organisation set up by the previous incumbents of Laser Production? In reality how are anybody really going to know which is which, especially considering the usual dinghy owners propensity for least cost routing to hardware acquisition. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:43pm
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Provided you are racing in handicap races, either boat can race, neither are trying to pretend they are anything else, boats without a PY or class association are allowed to sail,can't see Any club preventing a 'Laser' or a'ILCA' from racing along side each other, just put them down has 'Bruce Kirby' designed single hander. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:50pm
Its awfully hard to separate fact, fiction and propaganda, but my impression is that there was a faction in ILCA and the Italian Laser Association that strongly disagreed with dumping Laser Performance LLC, and its that faction that has set up this organisation. Those folks are presumably the ones who had the closest ties with the Laser Performance companies, and LP were doubtless happy to assist them. There's a lot of complicated history. One is that there have, I understand, recently been big disagreements within the Italian Laser CA which involved the long standing CA being unrecognised by the Italian National authority and being replaced by a new Association that was set up in competition. Another is that Laser Performance fairly recently had a big row with the International Sunfish Class Association (LP build the Sunfish) and set up an alternate Sunfish Assoc on the lines of TLC, but that was abandoned when they made up relations with the real Sunfish CA. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:57pm
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Are the same people making sails for the Laser and the ILCA? Just one with buttons and the other without? And several ILCA builders? I really can't see any club barring one with its head up its arse turning someone away because they have the "wrong" Laser. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 8:14pm
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Well, it's been my experience that 'rival' associations 'set up' to challenge whatever the particular status quo happens to be in place, rarely if ever succeed and definitely have no bearing in the reality of grass roots membership. At the end of the day at our level (club racers) we're just going to race anything that is vaguely Laser shaped as long as its cheap enough. What goes on in the atmospheric world of international competition other than the trickle down cheap hulls, nobody either bothers to know or even care about. So there never is going to be a 'right' or 'wrong' Laser, there are just going to be cheap or expensive and only one of them is going to win out. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 8:43pm
If the event is for boats of the International Laser Class, then they have little choice. And if a competitor chose to protest a boat for not being 'legal' then they would win the protest and it would be a very short hearing. Its been the case for many years that if you turn up at a UKLA supported open with a replica sail you will be turned away*, no matter how faithful a replica it is. What on earth makes you think the situation would or even should be any different with replica hulls? *or possibly loaned a legal sail - at my club we tried to do this. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 9:04pm
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Will be interesting to see what PY committee comes up with, when Laser and ILCA results start to come in? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 9:41pm
| A bigger elephant in the room is the mk2 sails and carbon topmasts. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 9:49pm
| I could be wrong , I often am but I have seen no evidence that the radial sails and carbonish top masts make a noticeable difference to laser/ILCA boat speed . |
Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 9:58pm
I think the top mast is mainly about reducing cost overall as you break less of them. The alloy ones amongst the serious dailors seem to get bent regularly and are then no use. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 10:31pm
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That was my thought too .
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 5:59am
| That's certainly the declared intention. As to whether it has succeeded, well that would take a carefully structured trial. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 8:23am
| you only need someone to think they're better and they become "must have" unfortunately. |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 8:29am
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We had an Ovi ILCA appear at our club yesterday. The hull-deck join seemed a bit more substantial and is properly gel-coated over for a seemless look n feel. And its just white, not that fugly ice-blue white LP were using. Otherwise, seemed just as you’d expect and certainly was not discernibly faster than its owners previous boat ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 8:31am
The Laser circuit is another matter entirely, and I'd expect at National level for this to be policed, just as it would be for any other class with licenced builders. I'm more thinking of clubs where replica sails will be discouraged, at least at the top end of the fleet. I wonder how many, if a member turned up with a brand new Laser, would be told, sorry, you can't race that here against our ILCA fleet. Most (all?) of which would be LPE Lasers. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 9:43am
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Wonder which one will get the experimental number? One of them is a new boat. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:11am
durability in both cases ali topmasts bent easily and the cross cut full sail was made of bog paper |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:15am
Both these things should lead to an increase in average boat speed over a number of years as fewer bent topmast and more longer lasting sails are used in club handicap racing. I suspect there are bigger variables, though, with weather and crew skill. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 5:16pm
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Can't see ILCA outselling Laser, nearly £3,000 dearer. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 5:55pm
On the one hand that feels like a lot of difference, but one could also ask why LPE weren't selling new Lasers for £3.5k before the ILCA rocked up ? Feels a bit like Mr R could be trying to stop the ILCA in its tracks by some classic anti-competitive discounting.
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 6:52pm
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I guess the market for LPE probably depends on how much centres expect to sell their boats on for. They usually move them on regularly and they get tarted up and sold on as nearly new boats. If the discount from lpe compensates for the loss of sell on they'll keep buying.
Knock on impact may be that the supply of nearly new ILCA tightens up a bit. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 7:09pm
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Private buyers who only handicap race won't pay ILCA money, people at clubs with ILCA/Laser fleets are only buyers I can see. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 7:21pm
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Why so expensive anyway ? Polyester,
single skin, minimal labour cost input, simple extruded alloy tube spars, and
sails that are really low cost to made. Nothing wrong with any of that btw
- if the price reflects it. For 95%+ of the sailing public paying more than a very token premium for a 'legitimate' product is simply not going to hack it. Where does the premium go and what 'extra value' is really worth that difference. Of course if you are equipping a squadie then bank of mum&dad may help bridge the gap .. but regular 'Joe public'? – ie the people who sail not every week, rarely away from their home club but do maybe on holiday once a year ? Clubs have been accepting 'training' sails at local level for years as 'equal', it is not a big step to accept seemingly almost identical hulls etc. ..Not everyone is bothered about official Open circuit racing either and a 'pirate' series could soon emerge almost instantly if it were deemed important. After all if there is any subtle difference between the two it is not likely to be as large as that between say a 1 year old boat and a brand new one anyway !! |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 7:45pm
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Cirrus, think it comes down to the old adage being selected as an Olympic class is a blessing and a curse.
------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:09pm
| As below .. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:13pm
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... think it comes down to the old adage being selected as an Olympic class is a blessing and a curse.
Shall we take that as more 'curse' than 'blessing' in reality ? .. rather it looks very much like the 'old guard' fighting over something that the rest of the world has quietly moved beyond now and cares even less about. The original Laser concept, drive and ideals abandoned long long ago, seemingly by all parties involved. There are few rich pickings or glory left for anyone now and certainly not enough to do more than delay further decline.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:36pm
But it’s never as simple as that . Why to people pay more for a golf than a seat. Because residuals are higher. People will pay more because of this . Because you can sail a ILCA in more places and more events than you can sail LPE boat .
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 6:12am
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Depends on who has the deepest pockets and the nerve to take it to the wire, wouldn't take a lot of money to set up a series, plus you have the big opens, when they restart. Aero going to be more affected by ILCA than Laser. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:22am
The deck is foam sandwich and always has been. Ovi are probably working to tighter tolerances = increased labour time. And they have new tooling/protoyping to pay for. With the situation regarding rival classes they probably want to recoup these costs and hopefully earn some money out of the class before the end of the current Olympic class cycle. I agree they seem expensive, and I agree that the LPE product must be a concern (And they no longer have a reason to work to tight tolerances and dont have tooling costs to recoup). But I can see why they might choose to pitch at the price level they've chosen. They people who want the boat the most and are most likely to buy are already locked into the system and have little choice - thats how it is with s SMOD.
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Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:35am
I think that's probably true at first, as "official" ILCA's with their price premium are going to be mandatory for serious class/nats/Olympic etc level racing and guys sailing at this level are the sort of folk who will buy new boats. But how many grassroots sailors are going to spend £6.5k on a new ILCA or even £4-5k for a second hand one to sail at club level ? I think the ILCA is likely to depreciate badly in the long term due to brand confusion and price competion from LPE. I just don't think there are enough "serious" ILCA/Laser sailors who will need an "official" boat compared to the mass of club level/recreational sailors who LPE will target. But hey, I don't sail Lasers any more so I could be wrong !
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:50am
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There is little parallel here between a 'Golf' and a 'Seat' at all - and as most know they are both VW group anyway along with the Skoda versions. Even in your example if the price difference was 40%+ 'Golf' sales would plumet .. but VW group would still make a good crust. To me it is looking increasingly like a group of rival manufacturers arguing about the rights and technical issues associated with 'Betamax' or 'VHS' products.... when the 'ship' was starting to go down and when residial demand is sliding away. The world has moved on and that is that. The Laser/ICLA products are well into 'cash-cow' territory and have been for years - ie milk the product for cash, and as much as possible of that too - for here there will be no further growth or likely market penetration !!.... and 'rivals' with a virtually identical product and a real grudge to boot. On top of that ICLA and their new friends have more to fear from the technical upstarts like the Aero, and far eastern 'me-too' future rivals in market areas that could still take to sailing big time, than any rump of historical Laser bulders. The only part of the game for ILCA remaining is the '5 circus ring' endorsement surely - but would anybody really want their future sales hanging by that thin thread - so easily cut ? Take that away and all that will be left is the 'generic' version buyers (cos the 'purists' will have transferred their loyalties to the next 'Olympic' class or its feeders). The generic builder of the 'Laser' conversally might well still persist, even then, if it keeps to a very tight price related strategy.. They would build where they do today at first but then look to far eastern partnerships and production in the longer term. In summary the ILCA concept faces two major threats 1) 'Better' more technically advanced alternatives - some even already built by their new builder friends 2) Lower cost rivals with almost identical 'Laser' products ... Threats from both directions. What a place to end up .... not
 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 11:15am
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There could almost be a need for a third Laser/ILCA Association or maybe LICALaser that administers a levelish equipment playing field at club level ... the LPE product is at a great price to grow the sport at grassroots level, but problems need some rules to control an arms race in knock off sails and equipment ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 12:23pm
We have noticed a definite step in speed for people who use Mk2 sails over Mk1s (even a new Mk1). Carbon top sections are another matter, we only have a couple of people who have only just started using them so time will tell. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 12:47pm
| Word is that the carbon top section allied with a mark 2 sail is more powerful and has pushed the ideal helm weight up a few KG from what was 78-80kg ? |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 4:22pm
Fully agree. I was surprised Ovi signed up - but they must think they can earn out of it or they wouldn't? There may well be (Most likely is) info out there that we are not party to. We will have to wait and see!
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 5:14pm
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https://laserperformance.uk/pages/arc-rigs-code-for-first-blog-post
https://www.sailingchandlery.com/collections/laser-boats-buy-a-laser/products/laser-xd-standard-boat-package-composite-mast ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 6:27pm
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ARC rig looks pants to my untrained eye but on the other hand quite a lot friends who work in boat and sail making seem to agree with me . |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 6:46pm
Sort of misses the point of who sails the Laser, a) Club sailors who want cheap equal racing and a new replica sail is an infrequent purchase b) Youth squad, Olympic wannabes and serious traveler racers who will be Laser / ILCA conformists all day. If you want the advantages of this rig you buy and Aero and slot into all there fantastic events. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:04pm
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ILCA will totally dominate single hander sales, Aero caught on due to problems with Laser, now its sorted, Laser and ILCA sales will unfortunately decimate them. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:24pm
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I very much doubt that.. Nobody I know and we have a fair number of laserati, would consider buying a Laser new, it'll just be the province of the squad wannabes and their blighted parents. I don't see the Aero being stopped anytime soon it's going from strength to strength, well as much strength has remains in this dwindling market.
As to my new understanding there are two sources of the Laser now, Laser as defined by the folk that have been building it for years, and Laser as defined by World Sailing and builders with accreditation from them. Nobody outside of the five ring troposphere will give a toss and my bet is sales will continue via that laserperformance website as confusing as it is (What is the difference between a Laser Race and a Laser XD did the not do the same thing?) As to those Arc rigs they should have done that ten years ago, too late now that boat has sailed. So I wonder if you buy an accredited boat then buy spare parts from the old site, will that nullify it's use as a class legal boat. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 7:10am
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iGRF sums this up perfectly ... praise where it is due ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 7:47am
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Unfortunately sales figures don't back him up, even through their worst crisis they were outselling Aero by a substantial amount, no way it isn't going to improve. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 8:02am
Hmmmmm I don't see that at all but we'll see. What Laser/ILCA do have is a strong following outside of racing which I would expect the LPE Laser product to retain due to price. In terms of UK sales I can't the Aero being beaten. Worldwide sails might be different but this will depend on which horse the ROW backs.
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 10:20am
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Interesting points raised about sales numbers and laser supply problems. I was led to believe that laser supply problems only really effected the USA and was not really a problem in the uk and Europe . Does anyone know different? Also it would be very interesting to see the sales figures of the aero and the laser in the UK and compare them to the world wide figures. I would guess the uk sales figures for the aero and laser would be quite close but worldwide the laser must sell many many times more . Can anyone add some facts to my ponderings
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Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:04am
The ILCA/Laser is a great little boat that I have a lot of affection for, but it's 50 year old technology and in ILCA form is hugely overpriced IMHO. Tend to agree with Cirrus that the ILCA will be a niche boat for squaddies etc, as a club sailor if I were going to spend close on £7k I'd buy a nearly new Phantom, Aero, Solo or whatever floated my boat. At club level £3.5k for an LPE replica is interesting but personally I don't think I could overlook the ethics of sailing a counterfeit.
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:04am
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The market will decide if ILCA/Laser 'Siamese twins' will both prosper, one will kill the other or both will die given enough rope and a few years.
The fact that this dysfunctional family have wasted so much time, money, and drive while boring the pants off the rest of the world with their soap opera drama has hardly helped their collective cause (or is that non-collective causes ?). Did nobody propose a reconciliation effort might just have be best for all concerned at any point ?
Place your bets now Ladies and Gentlemen, choose your favourite snacks and refreshments, settle down in your favourite seating - this box set still has some way to run yet !! (Try not to fall asleep though) Still think it looks like an argument between two pugnacious ‘crusties’ who have forgotten exactly how tenuous their hold really is in this market. No supplier in any market has an absolute right to survive - and it is time to stop behaving as if there were, however hard. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:08am
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There are loads of abandoned Laser hulls sat in most dinghy parks.
Other than by applying honesty and decency do you think that the desperate removing the plaque and sticking it on a current Laser can be prevented ? Having had 4 lasers over the years I should know if the number is marked elsewhere. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:49am
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How are LPE numbering their Lasers? The can't be consecutive with the last "World Sailing approved' Lasers as they would them be sharing numbers with the first ILCA dinghies...
I believe the number used to be moulded into the gel coat under the bow towing eye. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:04pm
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The figures for sales are on here somewhere in a recent thread, sure its something like 5 boats a week for Aero and several hundreds for LPE Laser, this was UK figures, so hardly similar sales.
LPE Laser is only a replica to UKLA, Laser/LPE have their own class, not a replica to them. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:09pm
Sailing a counterfeit? So you don't worry at all about the 'ethics' of World Sailing in all this? I thought the common feeling about WS is that they're right up there with FIFA on the 'ethics' front, and even from reading this thread, it's fairly obvious not all is right given the reaction from the Italians (not that I'm holding italians up as the last bastion of ethics) when all you want is a nice familiar little boat that lots of others sail to race around your local puddle on a sunday morning? Give me the counterfeit and knowing what I do know about the machinations and corruption at the top level of sailing governance down the years, my conscience will be clear as crystal. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:09pm
|
Just to add, on Laser performance website, there is a photo of three Lasers and they are numbered one, two and three. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 12:27pm
Yes to comply with the RCD and type approvals each hull must carry a unique Hull Identification Number. Taking a HIN from an older boat and sticking it on a new one opens up a huge can of worms legally with regards to RCD and Type Approvals which are legally enforceable in law unlike the contract spats. Not to mention opening themselves up to all sorts of litigation should something happen and the doctored hull not comply. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 1:41pm
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Blimey - surely we should leave the 'family' to their own internal quables and look at something a bit more interesting than this wretched shambles now. History is not on the side of any organisation or individuals so distracted from reality. Darwin got it right .... Adapt or die and forget about any previous glories or your versions of them, they are all very soon forgotton and unimportant. The Laser concept was a disrupting one when it first emerged and had a revolutionary effect on the sector. I even owned a string of 6 of them way back, and was a strong advocate for the class then. It is all so disappointing now. There must have been short of adults in the room when this self-inflicted decline started and they are still at it today. In a regular company any independent shareholders would have sold out long ago when they realised they were wasting their time as much as their money. Talk about re-arranging the deckchairs .... !!
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Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 3:30pm
Based purely on my observation, the numbers between Laser and Aero sales are skewed as many Training Schools, Holiday companies etc buy fleets of Lasers (LPE are significantly cheaper and would be a major decision factor) and less so Aero's - maybe 1 or 2. You would need a more detailed analysis based on buyer demographic. Private buyers would be a good stat. As an example, a year ago, Wildwind holidays replaced and bought 10 Lasers for their base in Vassiliki, whereas they still have only their 2 Aero's. I was at Wildwind last year :-)
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Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 3:52pm
Sailing a counterfeit? So you don't worry at all about the 'ethics' of World Sailing in all this? I/QUOTE] Not really, I'm not that interested in and have no control over WS. On the other hand I do have control over what boat I sail on my local pond, and I have no desire to sail anything that has any connection with Mr Babyfingers. Otherwise I agree with Cirrus, this is all such a shame for those of us who have had so much pleasure out of these little boats.
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Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 3:58pm
Agree entirely. Though the average club/school/holiday company punter couldnt care and just wants the cheapest new boat possible, and will go the LPE route IMHO. All involved parties to this farcical mess (ILCA/LPE mainly, though their are others) should hang their heads in shame.
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Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 5:43pm
| I just wonder why a club sailor would buy a new Laser given the number available used. What is the benefit of having a new one; update a used one with new bits and a decent sail - why not do that? |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 5:48pm
Coz they can
 . No different to buying a new car. Shiny new toy. Does the same as the old toy  |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 6:47pm
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......update a used one with new bits and a decent sail - why not do that? Absolutely if that is what still might fire you up....But do you get any necessary spares or upgrades from the ILCA or LPE coordinated suppliers ? ... now let me ponder that one for a while. The hull is still 'legal' in either 'code' as it was from 'earlier times'. OK so far - you could sail in either 'code' legally - but you still need some spares right ... Are they, each and every fitting marked as purist LPE or ILCA ? So who do you buy bits and pieces from - without the self-appointed boat Stazi getting all worked up ? ... and who on earth, at club level, is really going to police it ? Total FARCE in the making... Ah must be the 'School of unintended consequences' out at play once again.....and out to cane the simply dumb. As if there were not more important things to deal with in life.
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 7:05pm
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The use of the word Laser and the use of the word Legal in the same sentance should be banned. This is alliteration gone crazy giving something spurious authority and distorting the perceptions of users. Compliant seems a better word to me ------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 7:22pm
Interesting that the LPE XD Laser at £3,985 is supplied with a ‘class legal Mk II sail’ (the sketch on the website even has a red button). Clearly their lawyers where all over the wording. The top mast is described as composite, not sure it is compliant to any thing. ------------- Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 7:47pm
|
https://laserperformance.uk/collections/laser/products/laser-radial-class-compliant-sail
This is only sail you can't use on a ILCA. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 8:51pm
warranty you know that a 16st bum hasn't been working those decks in tacks and pummelling the cockpit floor. But I agree, the right used one - even quite old - is now a good buy |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 10:53pm
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How many ’ordinary club sailors’ bought new boats anyway? The majority that I've come across went to folks who were racing at at least major circuit events and usually National and International. Which is a pretty fair sized number if you think about it. Anyway those folks will surely want one with the right placque, whilst corporate buyers with no desire to have their boats off site may go the other way.
The interesting thought about LP LlCs predatory pricing,is whether in practice most Laser sales, at least to corporates, were discounted to that sort of level anyway. . |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 20 at 11:18pm
I can't remember the exact date but it was back in the financial crisis recession, they were being piled high and sold cheap at the Southampton Boat show one year when we were working there, they were around three grand from memory then. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 8:04am
Ay my little puddle we have seen 3 new class compliant (to satisfy the snowflakes) boats in the last 12 months. Other have boats which are used but still only a few years old. So the answer is more than you think. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 8:09am
The inkjet cartridge pricing model makes massive sense in a class like a laser, and there can be little doubt that the markup on things like sails and spars in percentage terms must have been significantly larger than on the hull. Going forward LPE are not going to have that boost and you wonder how sustainable their price for the boat can be?
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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 8:29am
| So what's the deal with SailJuice series events.... will Farzad boats be allowed to sail as 'Lasers' or not? |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 8:39am
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Going forward LPE are not going to have that boost and you wonder how sustainable their price for the boat can be? If non sustainable they will not survive - conversally if 'alternatives' are blatantly over-priced ditto for that version. The model that LPE are likely to pursue is of 'excellent value' and go for club level and institutional volume sales. The ILCA model no doubt will stress their 'circus' credentials - after all something like £3k extra is 'well worth it' surely ?! However if in the next decade sailing gets dropped from the Olympics or possibly the ILCA boat gets replaced while sailing is retained it is doomed. Personally I'd lean in the direction of the volume model that is less vulnerable to critical decisons made by other organisations. So if ILCA prices start getting discounted you can draw your own conclusions as to exactly how their commercial model and sentiment are developing !!
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 8:44am
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I think it will be hard for them to find grounds to refuse given theft they are Lasers. LPE are contravening no laws, IP rights, trade marks or patents by building and selling the boats. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 8:58am
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http://eurilca.org/ready-for-2020-senior-europeans-gdansk/
Almost 300 boats, is this first ILCA event? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:11am
You can enter as an Laser but not an ILCA. Once has a recognised international CA and class rules one doesn't..... No reason to stop them entering but distinguishing would be needed even if they lumped the 2 together for the purposed of 'fleet' results. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 10:37am
TBF I don't think anybody entering a LPE Laser is going to be claiming it is an ILCA. I'll be interesting to see if the RYA asks clubs to distinguish between Laser/ILCA and LPE Laser in the returns. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 11:03am
| And if they did, then it’s logical to assume the one sold to squaddies and travellers would perform better, therefore have a lower PN than the grunt boat for weekend warriors... so you get a better handicap with a Rastegar boat? Grumpf will have a field day.... |