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Noah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 10:27am
Originally posted by mongrel

Originally posted by Cirrus

If you have a class that already has compound curves available via the composite route it still does not matter how tight you then set the measurement rules .. whatever the rules or wording you simply cannot make ply bend to match the compound curves that are very straightforward in an optimised FRP composite. 

Er Contender?

Not sure what the contender reference is intended to mean, but the wooden boats are cold moulded, aren't they - not ply. AFAIK Signore Bonezzi(?) in Italy still builds beautiful hulls but I bet they are eye-wateringly expensive.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 10:59am
With judgement, skill and appropriate use of brute force you can get a fair amount of 3 dimensional curvature in ply, and even more if you build the required area from two layers of thin ply rather than one layer of thick. Back in the day it was even by no means unknown to cold mould a small area where extreme 3D curvature was required and do the rest of the boat in ply.

But the shape of a Phantom, with large flat panels means that foam sandwich with better panel stiffness is going to be superior, and there's really no way round that. One only has to look at the way the Phantom PY plummmeted once foam sandwich hulls and carbon spars were widespread in the fleet.

However you can get too excited about boat speed if one is not a front of fleet sailor. Is it really more fun to be racing for 10th place rather than 15th? I suggest that if you are out on the water enjoying competitive sailing with congenial people then the job is done.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 11:05am
Originally posted by JimC

 I suggest that if you are out on the water enjoying competitive sailing with congenial people then the job is done.

+1 from me on that sentiment  Thumbs Up
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by mongrel

Originally posted by Cirrus

If you have a class that already has compound curves available via the composite route it still does not matter how tight you then set the measurement rules .. whatever the rules or wording you simply cannot make ply bend to match the compound curves that are very straightforward in an optimised FRP composite. 

Er Contender?

Not sure what the contender reference is intended to mean, but the wooden boats are cold moulded, aren't they - not ply. AFAIK Signore Bonezzi(?) in Italy still builds beautiful hulls but I bet they are eye-wateringly expensive.
Wooden Bonezzis’ were plywood, still very sought after, as quick/quicker than the FRPs’.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by JimC


But the shape of a Phantom, with large flat panels means that foam sandwich with better panel stiffness is going to be superior, and there's really no way round that. One only has to look at the way the Phantom PY plummmeted once foam sandwich hulls and carbon spars were widespread in the fleet.

most of the reason why the PY plummetted was down to the epoxy boats being up to 14 kgs lighter than the GRP and even more on some wooden boats. The carbon spars did not make that much difference in the earlier days other than perhaps the helms not being knocked so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 1:19pm
So,  fast for most boats is stiff panels and high resistance to twisting assuming optimum weight and weight distribution
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah


most of the reason why the PY plummetted was down to the epoxy boats being up to 14 kgs lighter

Doesn't explain why similar PY changes have been seen on just about every other class that's adopted foam sandwich.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 3:40pm
....all epoxy Phantoms hulls come from a mould taken of a wooden boat.

Not from the mouth of one of the 'developers' of the Phantom epoxy hulls I have spoken with on the subject !  .... besides don't believe me just put a rigid steel rule across a epoxy modern hull and see for yourself.... They did not all come from a mythical single ancestor without some subtle but still significant  ... eer  'tweaking' along the way !!   Why would you not tweak the plug and tooling to real competitive advantage when the set tolerence rules allowed a medium sized bus to be driven through them and you were changing materials anyway (and therefore also changing the limitations imposed by the materials involved).  

You can bend ply and you can also twist it  but if you effectively get into cold moulding it, as has already been said, it is not really regular plywood anymore and that really is the only way to get a compound curve into a multi-layer wood  shape ...  And frankly if it was even practical in a formal production sense it would still be more efficient to build in foam and epoxy imo if allowed  - so why do it ?

And as goes with the Phantom you can add many other classes to the same list of  those suitable to be 'tweaked' when a switch to moulding went through - Solo, Fireball, Enterprise etc spring immediately to mind  and you will think of others I'm sure (though lets agree maybe not as completely with the OK maybe !)
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tink View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 6:36pm
Interesting stuff, the classic theory is that ply can be bent into a conic form (this has been stretched slightly to tortured or compound bending). Draw two diverging lines on a piece of paper, bend it normal to axis of symmetry of the two lines and it easy to see what ply is capable of. Jump 50+ years ahead and two things have changed: fast hull shapes are very different and we have CAD that could create a stiff multiple panel (not necessarily chines) hull shapes  made of stiff conical ply forms.

All very hypothetical as development cost would out weigh  the number of people prepared to take the risk and  spend the time actually building the resulting boat.  

All a UK perspective though, lively home built  Proa scene in Poland because it the most boat you get from the least materials. 
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Noah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by mongrel

Wooden Bonezzis’ were plywood, still very sought after, as quick/quicker than the FRPs’.

Well I never knew that. Always thought they were built from summat  exotic. I stand corrected.
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