Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Plywood Kit Designers |
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Cirrus ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 28 Jul 20 at 9:48pm |
If you have a class that already has compound curves available via the composite route it still does not matter how tight you then set the measurement rules .. whatever the rules or wording you simply cannot make ply bend to match the compound curves that are very straightforward in an optimised FRP composite. 'Modern' phantoms will always be faster as they are simply better shaped than can ever be achieved via bending and twisting 8x4 ply sheets. You cannot copy the compound curved shaping. Look at all the other traditional, originally plywood and chine, classes that made the transition down the years (with the possibly partial exception of the OK granted) - the ply build has died on its knees as a competitive or worthwhile build route. |
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Gordon 1430 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 27 Jun 17 Location: Lee on Solent Online Status: Offline Posts: 310 |
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Cirrus as per ,y previous post all epoxy Phantoms hulls come from a mould taken of a wooden boat. so don't se where the comment about compound curves come in. Hasn't a Magnum moth hull got compound curves? They were built from ply. |
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Gordon
Phantom 1430 |
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Riv ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 23 Nov 13 Location: South Devon Online Status: Offline Posts: 353 |
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So, no matter how stiff torsionally a dinghy hull shell can be made the weight distribution being the same and down to minimum weight the ability to increase the volume of the hull with the least increase in wetted area is the most important factor in a fast boat assuming all other tolerances have been exploited?
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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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salmon80 ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 29 Nov 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 119 |
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3mm ply.......
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CapSizer ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 18 |
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For those not imtimately familiar with old-style plywood Phantoms, even the the standard old stitch and glue ones had more panel curvature than you might think. The bottom edge on both the main and transom bulkheads had quite a bit of curvature, so it is not the slab shape that it appears to be. The way that the bow is developed introduces a lot of local curvature into the panel, and it actually required some force to pull the boat into shape over the main bulkhead. None of this is compound curvature, of course.
With regards to why a wooden OK can still be competitive and a wooden Phantom not, I would suggest that a wooden OK, given the size, mass and panel sizes, can be made "very" stiff. Probably stiff enough, if not as stiff as a composite one. A wooden Phantom at minimum allowed mass has large panels with minimal support, so it is easy to see why it cannot be anywhere near as stiff as a well-engineered epoxy sandwich boat. Having said that, it is not immediately obvious why a less stiff boat should necessarily be that much slower. It is not as if you are trying to control jib luff sag with rig tension.
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Noah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
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Do I recall that someone aeons ago tried to make the venerable Finn much more rigid and it turned out to be dog slow? Why would that be?
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Nick
D-Zero 316 |
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KazRob ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Oct 16 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 245 |
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Jim it is indeed the case that wood boats are as fast as foam sandwich ones in the OK. It is probably for all the reasons above but it is encouraging to see that this is a possible route again now we are all supposed to be more careful about sustainability etc. The table below is from the last Worlds in early 2019 taken from (https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/215612/Individualistic-choice-of-OK-Dinghy-Equipment). The article also sys that only four of the top ten were production boats, the rest being either home built, or built using Dan Leech's CNC kitset plans by professional builders and the third placed boat in Auckland was 35-years old Icebreaker. ![]() |
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OK 2249
D-1 138 |
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mongrel ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 27 Aug 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 304 |
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Er Contender?
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Bootscooter ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 May 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1094 |
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My understanding is that it's to do with the flexing relationship between the centreboard, hull and unstayed rig - the twist in the hull allows for 'flick'and extra energy transfer into the rig in wavy and pumping conditions. Aside from at Olympic level where the nth degree of performance is being chased, this is thought to be why (along with the strength and build quality afforded by being so heavy) 20+ year old hulls can still be competitive in National Masters fleets if they're well looked after. |
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andy h ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 69 |
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I thought with Merlins you could only build an FRP one with tooling taken off a fully sailable measured wooden hull. Granted they are clinker rather than hard chine. Do any other classes have that rule?
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Europe AUS53 & FF 3615
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret |
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