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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plywood Kit Designers
    Posted: 28 Jul 20 at 9:48pm
If you have a class that already has compound curves available via the composite route it still does not matter how tight you then set the measurement rules .. whatever the rules or wording you simply cannot make ply bend to match the compound curves that are very straightforward in an optimised FRP composite.

'Modern' phantoms will always be faster as they are simply better shaped than can ever be achieved via bending and twisting 8x4 ply sheets.  You cannot copy the compound curved shaping.   Look at all the other traditional, originally plywood and chine, classes that made the transition down the years (with the possibly partial exception of the OK granted) - the ply build has died on its knees as a competitive or worthwhile build route. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gordon 1430 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 6:15am
Cirrus
as per ,y previous post all epoxy Phantoms hulls come from a mould taken of a wooden boat. so don't se where the comment about compound curves come in. 
Hasn't a Magnum moth hull got compound curves? They were built from ply.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 6:19am
So, no matter how stiff torsionally a dinghy  hull shell can be made   the weight distribution being the same and down to minimum weight the ability to increase the volume of the hull with the least increase in wetted area is the most important factor in a fast boat assuming all other tolerances have been exploited?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote salmon80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 6:26am
Originally posted by Gordon 1430

Cirrus
as per ,y previous post all epoxy Phantoms hulls come from a mould taken of a wooden boat. so don't se where the comment about compound curves come in. 
Hasn't a Magnum moth hull got compound curves? They were built from ply.


3mm ply.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CapSizer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 6:43am
For those not imtimately familiar with old-style plywood Phantoms, even the the standard old stitch and glue ones had more panel curvature than you might think.  The bottom edge on both the main and transom bulkheads had quite a bit of curvature, so it is not the slab shape that it appears to be.  The way that the bow is developed introduces a lot of local curvature into the panel, and it actually required some force to pull the boat into shape over the main bulkhead.  None of this is compound curvature, of course.  

With regards to why a wooden OK can still be competitive and a wooden Phantom not, I would suggest that a wooden OK, given the size, mass and panel sizes, can be made "very" stiff.  Probably stiff enough, if not as stiff as a composite one.  A wooden Phantom at minimum allowed mass has large panels with minimal support, so it is easy to see why it cannot be anywhere near as stiff as a well-engineered epoxy sandwich boat. Having said that, it is not immediately obvious why a less stiff boat should necessarily be that much slower.  It is not as if you are trying to control jib luff sag with rig tension.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 7:19am
Do I recall that someone aeons ago tried to make the venerable Finn much more rigid and it turned out to be dog slow? Why would that be?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 7:37am
Originally posted by JimC

If plywood OKs are completely equal in performance to foam sandwich boats then that's surprising. Bearing in mind the far greater panel stiffness of foam boats it does seem unlikely. I certainly don't know of another class where its the case.

Jim it is indeed the case that wood boats are as fast as foam sandwich ones in the OK. It is probably for all the reasons above but it is encouraging to see that this is a possible route again now we are all supposed to be more careful about sustainability etc. The table below is from the last Worlds in early 2019 taken from (https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/215612/Individualistic-choice-of-OK-Dinghy-Equipment).  
The article also sys that only four of the top ten were production boats, the rest being either home built, or built using Dan Leech's CNC kitset plans by professional builders and the third placed boat in Auckland was 35-years old Icebreaker. 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 7:48am
Originally posted by Cirrus

If you have a class that already has compound curves available via the composite route it still does not matter how tight you then set the measurement rules .. whatever the rules or wording you simply cannot make ply bend to match the compound curves that are very straightforward in an optimised FRP composite. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 8:27am
Originally posted by Noah

Do I recall that someone aeons ago tried to make the venerable Finn much more rigid and it turned out to be dog slow? Why would that be?


My understanding is that it's to do with the flexing relationship between the centreboard, hull and unstayed rig - the twist in the hull allows for 'flick'and extra energy transfer into the rig in wavy and pumping conditions.
Aside from at Olympic level where the nth degree of performance is being chased, this is thought to be why (along with the strength and build quality afforded by being so heavy) 20+ year old hulls can still be competitive in National Masters fleets if they're well looked after.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andy h Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 20 at 9:40am
I thought with Merlins you could only build an FRP one with tooling taken off a fully sailable measured wooden hull.  Granted they are clinker rather than hard chine.  Do any other classes have that rule?
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