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Hybrid !

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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hybrid !
    Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:37am
You can say that it takes a brave decision to launch a completely new class .....

That is not a decision that has been, or needs to be, made any time soon !  I sold my interest in building / marketing boats a couple of years back (very thankfully given the current market).   Hybrid is currently just an indulgent bit of pure interest on my part at this time - because I wanted to try some ideas out of interest and do not need an immediate commercial justification to do so.  It is something of a hobby alongside still racing in two other classes !  However you never say 'No' completely and if any builders that may remain in the 'new normal' were interested in something like Hybrid you'd surely not turn them away either ?  But build or launch a new class by myself now ?    No of course not !

 

Though Hybrid might make a cracking entrant in something like GRFi's supposed all comers formula class he's proposed occasionally  .... Smile

Edited by Cirrus - 19 May 20 at 9:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 9:53am
It is easy to take the **** out of iGRF but in this case I think we has got it about right, The market for the lightweight 'modern' singlehander is super crowded with some very good boats indeed; the Aero, D-Zero and H2 between them surely cover most of the bases - for someone wanting this sort of boat any one of these will tick the boxes plus they have the advantage of that all important 'traction'.  But the modern, lightweight trapeze singlehander....now that would be radical and worthy of serious interest. As a 40 year plus Contender sailor, this may seem strange but I never pass up on an opportunity to sing the praises of the Rs600 BUT - at the same time, I would describe it as 'flawed genius'..... so a boat that sits at that sort of positioning could  find a gap in the market...forget the addition of extra sails - a simple, lightweight fun trapeze boat, I'm just amazed that someone hasn't looked at the 600/Contender scene, seen the failings in both and done a modern take that slots in to a gap that exists, rather than trying to jam another boat into a gap that simply isn''t there!

Dougal
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 10:13am

However - is there really demand for ANY new trapeze single hander class (either).  The Musto skiff  is now the de facto 'standard' modern take and the Contender remains a powerful focus for the 'traditionalist'.  As a segment it is still however very very limited in the current world.  Those who buy new boats are also disproportionately 'mature' and many clubs are not ideal for trapeze boats either.... Possible real world 'new' buyers are therefore far less likely to buy an alternative trapeze boat.   It is a particularly interesting segment to address, of course, but perhaps only from a technical point of view for the foreseeable ....

 

Might not stop me from putting a trapeze on Hybrid either at some point - or trying out other possibilities already considered but not yet involved.  That in a nutshell, is the beauty of an ‘off piste’ development like Hybrid.  You learn new stuff all the time - and then revert.



Edited by Cirrus - 19 May 20 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 10:15am
After returning to dinghies back in 2008 with the Spice, when I decided to buy a singlehander I had some pretty firm ideas as to what I wanted. Amongst them was no kite and no trapeze, 9 years of sailing the Spice had shown me that my skill level was not up to being competitive in a trapeze/assymetric rigged boat and my available time on the water was unlikely to change in the future. Likewise a kite on a singlehander upped the difficulty stakes beyond what I considered I could achieve and be competitive. All else being equal a hiking boat is always going to be more forgiving than a trap boat and a kite is always going to make a boat more difficult to sail, but the handicap is based on both being used so to sail to that handicap you have to be competent at using both kite and wire. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah


Originally posted by H2

On the lake I sail on the shifts and gusts make hiking dangerous at times!

I laugh at your shifts and raise them (in a northerly at our club). But I know exactly what you mean. If I sailed at the coast then I'd want a trapeze boat but on a pond hiking wins every time. That said Chris Hampe in his canoe did sail it around our pond at our Icicle open for a couple of years until even he'd had enough. Stayed upright, mostly.


Very impressive !

Hats off to him
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gordon 1430 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:08pm
Cirrus
Wondered why you don't go for the adjustable forestay option like we have on the Phantom?
 It certainly makes it a more usable rig in windy conditions when you have a large sail as your suggesting.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 1:47pm
I wonder why there is a reticense for more classes to support on the fly forestay adjustment, I couldn't imagine racing a board without altering the mast base, never mind raking the rig. It's part of the joy of the Solution that you can at least rake the rig to get you out of jail if the wind gets up. It also facilitates slakening the shrouds so the boom can get back far enough to sail by the lee. It was when I found out it wasn't an option on the Contender which finally reversed my decision, if ever a boat needs adjustability on the raking angle that does. Then I found they don't allow it on my Farr either, really does make you wonder why not, I can't think of any logical reason not to.
In my dreams of racing dinghy perfection a longer sliding mast base track features high on the list ,not that it would help the Farr that much at least not as much as two foot more waterline length.

It's such a drag, if the boat designer doesn't get it wrong the class association will come along and make certain many given designs suck.


PS, I do 'get' why traps don't work on small inland water I'd never consdier the Farr down our lake, but there's a lot of big res's like Grafham, Rutland, Derwent up north (not the lakes), Estuarys, where they might, I'm not advocating it as a sole solution, but it does save your knees and is so much nicer than hiking on long beats, I guess coming to this sport late and taking forever to get to grips with it muddles my thinking,wire comfort is such a panacea for lack of gym time.

Edited by iGRF - 19 May 20 at 1:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 3:04pm
No sitting on the side is easiest. Let the sail out and perch. Don't put too much effort into it. 
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 3:33pm
....the adjustable forestay option like we have on the Phantom ... (etc)

Yes they do work on Phantoms and on other classes with similar style sails. Raking seems to work well on lower aspect rigs particularly if the mast is a tad on the stiff side in single-handers.  (eg Solution as well) or have relatively long booms in relation to mast length.  More modern higher aspect sails with reasonable roach and (some) full length battens however permit other depower options that have less potential down-side imo ..   I've got no problem with adjustable forestays personally and never have had when they are right for the class... But then today I also don't have to deal with the odd  'warranty' claim from the customer who somehow 'get things wrong' in the heat of the moment!.  (Stuff happens ...) Some sadly tend to blame the spar supplier when in fact they have really forgotten to support the rig fully in higher winds as they switch from 'depowered and raked' upwind to a hairy offwind leg on a gusty day and/or in waves !   Rake controls rely on the crew to exercise care and appropriate application on every leg ...especially on windy days and without fail and without delay.

BTW when I last enquired about the 'real' sail area of the Phantom from North Sails a way back they said it was really around 11.4- 11.5m  - ie well above the often quoted 9.7m that was derived from the original Fireball main they started with in the 70's.  .  That is a lot more than we are currently testing with Hybrid or even the largest we will be testing at 10.4m...  The underlying aim is to produce something that goes well enough without needing quite as much sail area... but then we could always still try a Phantom rig  on it sometime I guess.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 20 at 7:08pm
Aaah I get it now, so basically a class association of muppets are basically admitting they are muppets and not capable of sailing their own class so have to mitigate for their muppetry.. Always said Contender sailors were muppets.
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