Defibs at clubs.

   Biggest issue for my club is poor mobile signal, would have to find a member with a signal. 

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423zero Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420	Post Options Post Reply Quote 423zero Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Defibs at clubs. Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 9:57am
	Biggest issue for my club is poor mobile signal, would have to find a member with a signal.
	Robert

ian.r.mcdonald Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 440	Post Options Post Reply Quote ian.r.mcdonald Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 9:28am
	Sounds like the voice of both experience and knowledge. Very useful stuff

polc1410 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Posting king Joined: 10 Jan 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 147	Post Options Post Reply Quote polc1410 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 10:31pm
	RNLI D and 85's do not carry a defib. This is an organisation not short of money. They could afford to put two on every boat in a specially designed custom built enclosure. But deployment in the base of a Rib is "challenging". If you've never tried chest compressions in the base of a RIB at speed - try it! Now consider defibrillation. Your RIB will need to stop... A DCA ambulance normally stops to shock. The most likely cause of death sailing is presumably drowning. Current protocol = 5 breaths then compressions. 5 breaths = 30 seconds. If your lake is 1 mile long and you are doing 20+kts then you are 1/3rd of the way ashore. Practice with face mask - resus from the head is about the only viable way on a RIB. The RNLI E Class defib is actually as a method to quickly get a defib to a shore location like a pontoon without needing to worry about London Traffic! Ensuring the right RIB got there first etc would also be a complication. There may be cases where you'd consider it but I suspect most lakes will be better to have it meet the rib as it comes ashore. We have had one for a while after a neighbouring club had a shore based arrest. We are rural, you'd hope the air ambulance happened to be returning to base by chance! We fund raised specifically for it. Selection was guided by ambulance service who did some initial training. Other factors to consider - child (some use special pads) - battery life - pad life - consumables - if someone is big sick and has the pads attached but not used how much does replacement cost - packaging - is it in a bag? Does the bag have space for extras like tough scissors (wetsuit / drysuit off) resus mask, etc. - how would any future software update be done? (Software updates could be needed if UK ResusCouncil updates the protocol... In my experience - getting a club "shore" to efficiently respond to a radio call will be a major cause of delay. If your club protocol is to change channel for 'privacy' has it been tested and does it actually delay placing the 999 call?

jeffers Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048	Post Options Post Reply Quote jeffers Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:54pm
	Given how restrictive most safety boats are I would say you couldnt get an AED to work in them. At larger events of club that regularly use a committee boat for starting then one on board there might be sensible. At Hunts the powerboat can cross the lake in about 30-40 seconds at full speed. The instructions are to drive the boat onto the shore in an emergency. So would I muck about trying to get a defib if I was on safety, no I would get the casualty to the shore ASAP. At a larger club (say Grafham or Rutland) or on the sea that decision will be different.
	Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74

Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3400	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:41pm
	I'd guess all Lifeboats carry one so seawater is, likely, not a problem. edit :- E Class and All Weather Lifeboats do carry a defibrillator, D Class (and all except the smallest ILB) carry a 'full resuscitation kit' but I can't find any details, will ask next time I'm at Holyhead. Edited by Sam.Spoons - 24 Feb 20 at 12:57pm
	Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Sussex Lad Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 08 Jun 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 360	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sussex Lad Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:35pm
	Indeed. In the clubhouse or boathouse absolutely. On a safety boat though? Sams link very interesting although it doesn't mention salt water. Much Higher conductivity.

ian.r.mcdonald Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 440	Post Options Post Reply Quote ian.r.mcdonald Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:24pm
	And we all hope that all clubs have at least one and train people to use it. And we all hope that not one is ever used!

Sussex Lad Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 08 Jun 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 360	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sussex Lad Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:04pm
	Here's a piece from an American study on the "cost effectiveness" of AEDs (automatic external defibs) in public places. The study has no relevance to sailing clubs in UK, just posted out of interest . A UK club might have difficulty explaining to a bereaved spouse that they couldn't save their nearest and dearest because their life wasn't worth it. "OBJECTIVE The American Heart Association (AHA) recommends an automated external defibrillator (AED) be considered for a specific location if there is at least a 20% annual probability the device will be used. We sought to evaluate the cost-effectiveness of the AHA recommendation and of AED deployment in selected public locations with known cardiac arrest rates. RESULTS Under the base-case assumption that a deployed AED will be used on 1 cardiac arrest every 5 years (20% annual probability of AED use), the cost per quality-adjusted life year (QALY) gained is $30,000 for AED deployment compared with EMS-D care. AED deployment costs less than $50,000 per QALY gained provided that the annual probability of AED use is 12% or greater. Monte Carlo simulation conducted while holding the annual probability of AED use at 20% demonstrated that 87% of the trials had a cost-effectiveness ratio of less than $50,000 per QALY." As I said rather these mercenary figures are not relevant to a UK sailing club but it does raise the question of "how small does a probability have to be before we stop worrying much about it? Edited by Sussex Lad - 24 Feb 20 at 12:14pm

Noah Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611	Post Options Post Reply Quote Noah Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 10:53am
	I wasn't personally involved so the following is basically hearsay, but when a defib was needed at a small pond in Surrey the casualty was taken back to shore where the only defib was located. Fortunately a successful outcome was achieved. Remember - cardiac problems aren't always a catastrophic heart failure event. Pain in the indicative places and general weakness are often the first signs of something amiss. A defib will not work on a heart that is beating, but a sailor in difficulties - e.g. the pain etc - can be brought to shore quickly for treatment that might involve the defib before the guys in green show up.
	Nick D-Zero 316

Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3400	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 10:47am
	Granted the page I linked to is by a Defib manufacturer but they say that even one minute delay can affect the outcome and the best option for the casualty is for the defibrillator to be deployed at the earliest opportunity. I know little about it but surely a beating heart has to be better than CPR? Agreed that the likelihood of it being necessary, on the water at least, are pretty small. We all take a calculated risk when we sail, just as we do when we drive, or cross the road. Edited by Sam.Spoons - 24 Feb 20 at 11:19am
	Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Defibs at clubs.

"OBJECTIVE

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