Defibs at clubs.
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13535
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 5:49pm
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Topic: Defibs at clubs.
Posted By: fleaberto
Subject: Defibs at clubs.
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 1:19pm
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Neither of my clubs have Defib units onsite. I'm wondering how many clubs do actually have these at all? Not just from a sailing point of view where, to be honest, crucial timings are eaten into simply through the process of recovering the patient, but in in terms of other people in & around the premises. We have two very active Model Boat / Model Yacht clubs operating from our shores as well as regular Scouts / Guide groups etc. If you do have one - and I'm keen to promote the purchase of such a device at at least one of my clubs - then are there any particular models etc to look for? What Pros & Cons have been encountered? We aren't publically accessible so can't apply for local community grants so are looking to purchase our own. Just thought there may be some experience in here somewhere. Cheers ------------- Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays' |
Replies:
Posted By: Wee Man
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 2:42pm
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We have 2 Defibs at our (very small) club. One permanently mounted outside on the wall accessible to the public, we also have a portable one that can go out on safety/committee boat (not that I fancy using one on a wet casualty but better to have it available)
We funded them via Tesco Communities thing (the wee blue chip things at the tills) Ours are manufactured by Cardiac Science ------------- Nacra Infusion F18 |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 2:49pm
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We have had one inside the clubhouse for about a year. Hopefully ‘ The Moo ‘ is around, as he can fill in more of the details.
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 3:34pm
At your service 
Yes we do have a small portable one in the foyer of our Clubhouse. We are in a locked compound with no public access. There should be no requirement for its use other than when we are present. We purchased it online a few years ago for less than £1000 if I recall. We did a bit of fundraising within the Club and financed the rest from subscription income. I do not recall what make it is. I think it was recommended by one of the first aid organisations.It is small, I think the battery life is 5 years and I believe is simple to operate with voice instructions. Thankfully not had cause to use it yet but it is ready to go. When committee members refresh their first aid training (organised by the Club tailored to our specific needs), we ask the trainer to include a module on defibrillator use and last time she brought along some training machines for us to practice with. With our ageing club demographic and fairly remote location we thought it was the right way to go. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 4:40pm
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They put one in the moment I took over as Commodore, not sure why.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 5:09pm
We have one in the entrance at Blithfield. Use of it is included in our annual first aid courses. Message me if you would like to come over and have a look and talk to the people that bought it and set it up. As an occasional RC sailor at yours, hope I never need it but would be good to know it's there. |
Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 6:50pm
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We have one at Lee on Solent SC one of our former commodore's was a first responder and arranged it. Might be worth checking if your local volunteers can help. ------------- Gordon Phantom 1430 |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 7:08pm
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The one problem I see with the external units is that one needs a mobile phone to call for the unlock code...
How many of us have a mobile with them while around the sailing area? That is ready to sail or recover dinghies? I also wonder how useful they are for a casualty at the far end of the lake. Given that the rescue team need to reach the casualty, recover to safety boat, then reach the clubhouse - even at full power it will take several minutes for the process. Obviously, for members not sailing it's potentially useful. Colin |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 7:24pm
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Easy for us as the club ( where its stored inside ) as when people are there the club is open.
I was most surprised during my course of the huge increase in recovery compared to CPR. And whilst the RIB is a pain to get out and get on the water, the speed of getting a casualty back compared to an easy to access onboard boat makes it totally the right choice. And I hope that neither is used together, ever. But good that they are ready not to be used! |
Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 12:13pm
Yeah, that's the problem that I do talk about when we discuss this issue - Timings. I've done defib training at our local village as we have one for the community and it was striking how little time you have for the machines to be useful in helping. You don't need to be overly remote for time to become a real issue. However, with others onsite such as radio sailors (Who, without being too general) are on the more elderly side as well as a lot of grandparents keeping an eye on the kids when Mum & dad are sailing we're thinking that it may be a worthwhile investment. We wouldn't need the whole phone-code thing as we're not publically accessible and wouldn't be a 'community' asset. A local Search & Rescue group do train on our water though so they'll be a good source of help too. Interesting to see that clubs do indeed invest though so something to look more into I think. ------------- Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays' |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 12:45pm
calling for a code is to do with two things 1. security for a device with otherwise unrestriCted access 2. ensures that links 1, 3 +4 in the 'chain of survival' are in place https://www.resus.org.uk/resuscitation-guidelines/adult-basic-life-support-and-automated-external-defibrillation/#chain" rel="nofollow - https://www.resus.org.uk/resuscitation-guidelines/adult-basic-life-support-and-automated-external-defibrillation/#chain The GP surgery i am registered with has one of it;s defibs in one of these external cabinets by the external door to the surgery , on every consulting room wall and behind the reception desk there is a poster with an aide memoire for Emergencies - on this is the defib box code ... Ideal world each Rescue boat would be equipped with an AED in a suitably ruggedised locker / firmly attached Peli case but that is ai cost / value / benefit decision , having an AED available ashore still buys time compared to waiting for the 999 response ( the possible exception i can thnk of to that is Hykeham if Helimed 29 is on base at Waddington as it could launch , barely clear Waddington Circuit and put down at the club faster than a road ambulance would get from the main road to the club never mind the response time to the gate ) it is near impossible to do decent CPR in a rescue boat ( vs doing it in a full on lifeboat or similar sized workboat/ committee boat / yacht ), the optimal answer is casualt to nearest land and resources to casualty on that nearest land ( it;s why ambulance crews will remove someone from a normal domestic bed to the floor or their trolley to do CPR - to provider the counter pressure of being on a solid base |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 1:07pm
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How do you check for patients who do not want to be resuscitated? Do you have to? Does use of defibrillator constitute resuscitation? Would we be liable if we resuscitate a patient, who comes around and is paralysed, who is a do not resuscitate? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 4:48pm
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No, we wouldn't. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 4:51pm
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Frightening, what we have come to, should I help this person? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 5:00pm
I await proper advice from a medical professional, but I have a relative in a similar position. The requirement is to display clearly the relevant DNR form or to keep it in a very obvious medical file. I find it hard to believe that someone in this position would not come to a sailing club without making their position very clear to someone who would be with them at all times. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 5:12pm
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Member of the public. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 6:29pm
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There is a Good Samaritan law, but its mainly to offer some support for off duty medical professionals, not very well written. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 7:13pm
https://www.soasafety.co.uk/will-i-be-sued-for-giving-first-aid/" rel="nofollow - https://www.soasafety.co.uk/will-i-be-sued-for-giving-first-aid/
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Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 1:36am
If the DNAR status cannot be proven to satisfaction of the responders CPR is commenced and worked until a practitioner who has the authorisation to call it is present if there is no response |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 3:51pm
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Sometimes I work with people who have DNRs, however from the careplans it is made clear that it is DNR only in specific circumstances.
------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 9:10am
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Defibs are a good thing and designed so that people with no medical training can use them. They will not do anything if it is not the right action to do. They can buy vital time and save lives as has been proven and getting a defib even with a code is usually quicker than an ambulance or first responder arriving on site. We have one at Hunts, training is given on all first aid courses as to its use but they are idiot proof. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 5:26pm
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Back to the suggestion of having defibs on rescue boats:- My understanding is that these units develop quite a high voltage (little current), but when used, warn bystanders to step back. Can you really use a defib in a rescue boat? My club has a mixture of RIBs and Pioneers, which don't all have an ideal floor space of a casualty, but can be pretty well guaranteed to be wet... How do such units survive in a wet environment (spray, rain etc) High voltage and water aren't usually a good combination.... Using one would, in this time of year, mean cutting off the casualty's wet/dry suit to attach the electrodes. Something that isn't too easy in a rescue boat - even on a lake. I guess that the best plan is to move the casualty to an island or near shore, but then we're isolated from the emergency services, without re-packaging the casualty into a boat and transporting them. It's not an easy situation. Colin
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 7:23pm
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This article covers the question pretty thoroughly. Basically you can use an AED even in shallow water and it's almost always better to use it ASAP than to wait. So maybe at least one fast RIB should carry one? https://www.cardiacscience.co.uk/your-weird-and-wonderful-aed-questions-answered/" rel="nofollow - https://www.cardiacscience.co.uk/your-weird-and-wonderful-aed-questions-answered/
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 7:51pm
| Shouldn't the priority be to get the casualty back to base to give access to ambulance etc and to have the support of others ( potentially more experienced) ? Even if the trip back was just supported by CPR. Surely removing kit etc is going to difficult afloat |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 8:26pm
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Depends on distance, small lake, get them to shore, radio ahead requesting someone call for an ambulance. Greater distance, you need to make a decision. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 8:47pm
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Thanks guys,
Looking at the lake I use, normally 2 rescue boats, far end of the lake is about 1mile at the far end. If we reckon that 1 rescue boat per 1/2 of the lake, then if it takes a couple of minutes to reach a casualty ( say 30 seconds to realise it's a casualty, not just a capsize; 45 seconds to reach casualty, then 20 seconds to recover the unresponsive body - with 2 people), then do the assessment, is the defib actually going to help? To be honest, I do wonder if the main use for a club defib is for people at the club, rather than the sailing members... Colin |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 7:46am
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What's the probability of a defib being needed on a safety boat? Not very high I would have thought. .......having said that, sailors aren't getting any younger.  |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 10:47am
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Granted the page I linked to is by a Defib manufacturer but they say that even one minute delay can affect the outcome and the best option for the casualty is for the defibrillator to be deployed at the earliest opportunity. I know little about it but surely a beating heart has to be better than CPR?
Agreed that the likelihood of it being necessary, on the water at least, are pretty small. We all take a calculated risk when we sail, just as we do when we drive, or cross the road.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 10:53am
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I wasn't personally involved so the following is basically hearsay, but when a defib was needed at a small pond in Surrey the casualty was taken back to shore where the only defib was located. Fortunately a successful outcome was achieved. Remember - cardiac problems aren't always a catastrophic heart failure event. Pain in the indicative places and general weakness are often the first signs of something amiss. A defib will not work on a heart that is beating, but a sailor in difficulties - e.g. the pain etc - can be brought to shore quickly for treatment that might involve the defib before the guys in green show up. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:04pm
Here's a piece from an American study on the "cost effectiveness" of AEDs (automatic external defibs) in public places. The study has no relevance to sailing clubs in UK, just posted out of interest . A UK club might have difficulty explaining to a bereaved spouse that they couldn't save their nearest and dearest because their life wasn't worth it."OBJECTIVEThe American Heart Association (AHA) recommends an automated external defibrillator (AED) be considered for a specific location if there is at least a 20% annual probability the device will be used. We sought to evaluate the cost-effectiveness of the AHA recommendation and of AED deployment in selected public locations with known cardiac arrest rates. RESULTSUnder the base-case assumption that a deployed AED will be used on 1 cardiac arrest every 5 years (20% annual probability of AED use), the cost per quality-adjusted life year (QALY) gained is $30,000 for AED deployment compared with EMS-D care. AED deployment costs less than $50,000 per QALY gained provided that the annual probability of AED use is 12% or greater. Monte Carlo simulation conducted while holding the annual probability of AED use at 20% demonstrated that 87% of the trials had a cost-effectiveness ratio of less than $50,000 per QALY." |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:24pm
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And we all hope that all clubs have at least one and train people to use it.
And we all hope that not one is ever used! |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:35pm
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Indeed. In the clubhouse or boathouse absolutely. On a safety boat though? Sams link very interesting although it doesn't mention salt water. Much Higher conductivity. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:41pm
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I'd guess all Lifeboats carry one so seawater is, likely, not a problem.
edit :- E Class and All Weather Lifeboats do carry a defibrillator, D Class (and all except the smallest ILB) carry a 'full resuscitation kit' but I can't find any details, will ask next time I'm at Holyhead.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 12:54pm
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Given how restrictive most safety boats are I would say you couldnt get an AED to work in them. At larger events of club that regularly use a committee boat for starting then one on board there might be sensible. At Hunts the powerboat can cross the lake in about 30-40 seconds at full speed. The instructions are to drive the boat onto the shore in an emergency. So would I muck about trying to get a defib if I was on safety, no I would get the casualty to the shore ASAP. At a larger club (say Grafham or Rutland) or on the sea that decision will be different. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 10:31pm
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RNLI D and 85's do not carry a defib. This is an organisation not short of money. They could afford to put two on every boat in a specially designed custom built enclosure. But deployment in the base of a Rib is "challenging".
If you've never tried chest compressions in the base of a RIB at speed - try it! Now consider defibrillation. Your RIB will need to stop... A DCA ambulance normally stops to shock. The most likely cause of death sailing is presumably drowning. Current protocol = 5 breaths then compressions. 5 breaths = 30 seconds. If your lake is 1 mile long and you are doing 20+kts then you are 1/3rd of the way ashore. Practice with face mask - resus from the head is about the only viable way on a RIB. The RNLI E Class defib is actually as a method to quickly get a defib to a shore location like a pontoon without needing to worry about London Traffic! Ensuring the right RIB got there first etc would also be a complication. There may be cases where you'd consider it but I suspect most lakes will be better to have it meet the rib as it comes ashore. We have had one for a while after a neighbouring club had a shore based arrest. We are rural, you'd hope the air ambulance happened to be returning to base by chance! We fund raised specifically for it. Selection was guided by ambulance service who did some initial training. Other factors to consider - child (some use special pads) - battery life - pad life - consumables - if someone is big sick and has the pads attached but not used how much does replacement cost - packaging - is it in a bag? Does the bag have space for extras like tough scissors (wetsuit / drysuit off) resus mask, etc. - how would any future software update be done? (Software updates could be needed if UK ResusCouncil updates the protocol... In my experience - getting a club "shore" to efficiently respond to a radio call will be a major cause of delay. If your club protocol is to change channel for 'privacy' has it been tested and does it actually delay placing the 999 call? |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 9:28am
| Sounds like the voice of both experience and knowledge. Very useful stuff |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 9:57am
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Biggest issue for my club is poor mobile signal, would have to find a member with a signal. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 10:37am
| I agree with Polc1410 - they obviously have some level of involvement in this professionally ( the use of DCA to refer to a double crewed ambulance) suggests involvement A+E / ambulance service/ VAS ) |
Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 12:52pm
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Some really useful input. Cheers everyone. One of my clubs is very small in terms of water size, so we could have casualties ashore pretty quickly. I'm minded to recommend at least one device ashore. The scenario that has been painted regarding the whole resus process on a moving rib (assuming the craft is big enough in the first place) paints a very good picture and all that I'd been considering whilst discussing this issue with our committee. Thanks everyone, some good points raised, thankyou ------------- Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays' |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 1:13pm
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Any clubs sending out inexperienced/new to sailing/no first aid cert volunteers as safety boat crews? I suspect there are some. Getting a casualty into a rib and knowing how to perform cardiac massage might be a challenge to some crews.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 2:22pm
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Thanks polc1410 for the accurate update/corrections. Are you a Lifeboat crewman by any chance? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 2:45pm
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No I'm not lifeboat. Interested ex first aid instructor who has considered many of the issues over the years. Have discussed with lifeboat teams on occasions.
I would fully expect there are a number of clubs with people who have never done any first aid training Manning RIBs. And others who did first aid for a different role who have never had to spend any time considering how to do CPR or recovery position in a RIB. I'd go so far as to say - RYA inspections that ask to see first aid kits on RIBs are useless... Be far better to see a casualty care exercise tested on a RIB including the learning and action plan. There will ALWAYS be learning and action plans! Likewise - don't show me the action card which someone kindly laminated last night before the inspection. Show me it working. I.e. find a phone, a phone signal, 'place a call', post someone to the gate/barrier etc to let ambulance in and direct them. If you are expecting ambulance to go to a casualty have you got bouyancy aids ready for them to put on. What is the plan for the other sailors - keep out or bring ashore? Where? What is the plan for non-emergency radio traffic - is it moving channel? Inland clubs seem to have decided to move the emergency to another channel. Show me that working? Half the members can't even unlock the radio! |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 7:11pm
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Simple thing with radio, stick to one channel, will always be members who can't do technical stuff, find them something they can do. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 7:36pm
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423 - completely agree.
Inland pond. Likely on 37a/M1 so stay there. If you have something else happening and REALLY need to do Comms about it, they can do so on another channel Sea club - you may want to do major emergency stuff on 16, but you'd need a plan for how you handle that. (At least you have a button programmed to do it) |
Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 25 Feb 20 at 8:17pm
That's the way it is for a lot of clubs, diminishing experience. Glad I don't have to the duty roster. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Feb 20 at 10:03am
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Seems unlikely that local clubs will attain level of a RNLI station, RYA guidelines probably most realistic level. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 01 Mar 20 at 8:56am
| Our puddle club has one of the two village defibrilators within 200 yards but the only time we've had someone with an issue we were lucky to have a member who is a vet and lead the help and shipped the (still walking) patient off in an ambulance. There's no substitute for professional training! |