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Defibs at clubs.

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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Defibs at clubs.
    Posted: 24 Feb 20 at 7:46am
What's the probability of a defib being needed on a safety boat? Not very high I would have thought.

.......having said that, sailors aren't getting any younger. Cry

 

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ColPrice2002 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 8:47pm
Thanks guys,

Looking at the lake I use, normally 2 rescue boats, far end of the lake is about 1mile at the far end.
If we reckon that 1 rescue boat per 1/2 of the lake, then if it takes a couple of minutes to reach a casualty ( say 30 seconds to realise it's a casualty, not just a capsize; 45 seconds to reach casualty, then 20 seconds to recover the unresponsive body - with 2 people), then do the assessment, is the defib actually going to help?

To be honest, I do wonder if the main use for a club defib is for people at the club, rather than the sailing members...

Colin
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 8:26pm
Depends on distance, small lake, get them to shore, radio ahead requesting someone call for an ambulance. Greater distance, you need to make a decision.
Robert
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 7:51pm
Shouldn't the priority be to get the casualty back to base to give access to ambulance etc and to have the support of others ( potentially more experienced) ? Even if the trip back was just supported by CPR. Surely removing kit etc is going to difficult afloat
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 7:23pm
This article covers the question pretty thoroughly. Basically you can use an AED even in shallow water and it's almost always better to use it ASAP than to wait. So maybe at least one fast RIB should carry one?

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 23 Feb 20 at 7:26pm
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ColPrice2002 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 5:26pm
Back to the suggestion of having defibs on rescue boats:-

My understanding is that these units develop quite a high voltage (little current), but when used, warn bystanders to step back. 
Can you really use a defib in a rescue boat? My club has a mixture of RIBs and Pioneers, which don't all have an ideal floor space of a casualty, but can be pretty well guaranteed to be wet... How do such units survive in a wet environment (spray, rain etc)

High voltage and water aren't usually a good combination....

Using one would, in this time of year, mean cutting off the casualty's wet/dry suit to attach the electrodes. Something that isn't too easy in a rescue boat - even on a lake. I guess that the best plan is to move the casualty to an island or near shore, but then we're isolated from the emergency services, without re-packaging the casualty into a boat and transporting them.

It's not an easy situation.

Colin
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 20 at 9:10am
Defibs are a good thing and designed so that people with no medical training can use them. They will not do anything if it is not the right action to do.

They can buy vital time and save lives as has been proven and getting a defib even with a code is usually quicker than an ambulance or first responder arriving on site.

We have one at Hunts, training is given on all first aid courses as to its use but they are idiot proof.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 3:51pm
Sometimes I work with people who have DNRs, however from the careplans it is made clear that it is DNR only in specific circumstances.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 20 at 1:36am
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

Originally posted by 423zero

Frightening, what we have come to, should I help this person?


I await proper advice from a medical professional, but I have a relative in a similar position. The requirement is to display clearly the relevant DNR form or to keep it in a very obvious medical file. I find it hard to believe that someone in this position would not come to a sailing club without making their position very clear to someone who would be with them at all times.


If  the  DNAR  status cannot be proven to  satisfaction of the responders  CPR is commenced  and worked  until a practitioner   who has the authorisation to call it is present  if there is no response 


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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 7:13pm
https://www.soasafety.co.uk/will-i-be-sued-for-giving-first-aid/

Advanced Decisions

What is a 'Living Will'?

A Living Will or, more accurately, an Advanced Decision allows a person over 18 years to refuse specified medical treatment for a time in the future when they might nor have the mental capacity to consent or refuse to that treatment.

Advanced Notices are commonly used where a patient with a known or predicted medical condition sets out their wishes – while they have the capacity to do so – regarding future treatment.  Typically this may be that an patient with a degenerative health problem may request that should they suffer a cardiac arrest, they are not resuscitated.

For a patient to refuse life sustaining treatment, the Advance Notice must be:

  • be in writing (it can be written by someone else or recorded in healthcare notes);
  • be signed and witnessed; and
  • state clearly that the decision applies even if life is at risk.

 

In terms of a First Aider responding to a life threatening situation it is unreasonable to assume they would be aware of this written document.   It may be that a person known to the casualty attempts to prevent the treatment of First Aid if the casualty has made an Advanced Notice.  Again, it is difficult and unreasonable  for the First Aider to make a judgement about the validity of this claim.

Should any bystander attempt to prevent life-saving treatment of the casualty, the emergency services should be called as paramedics and other healthcare professionals can – in certain circumstances –  provide life saving treatment without or against consent. 

Further reading:  NHS - Advance Decisions

Excerpt taken from 'First aid & the law part 1 - Duty of care.

 




Edited by 423zero - 19 Feb 20 at 7:33pm
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