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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Race training
    Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 11:45am
One thing that interests me is that racing cyclists train obsessively and often have coaching and training plans - and yet the people I know who have switched from sailing to cycling tend to do extremely well in cycling. One of the mid pack guys at my old club's mid-pack Laser fleet went back to cycling and basically would choose which two state titles (in his age group) he wanted each year, then go out and get them. Another who was a good windsurfer is a multiple national masters champ who knocks off the world champ and world record holder.

That seems to indicate that it's not that sailors are slack arses per se. It may just be that training is difficult because you spend so much time driving to the club, rigging and de-rigging.
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Oinks

I don’t think the tennis/golf coaching model lends itself to sailing very well. Our sport is (gloriously) much more complicated than getting a pro to sort out your serve or swing. A great book to read on these darkening winter evenings is Eric Twiname’s Sail, Race and Win. Part of its preamble is “The aim is to move you up the fleet by coaching yourself”. At the end of the day, only you can drag yourself up the pecking order. This book’s a gem.



Best technique book ever written, by a looooooooooong way.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:04pm
I wish there was an ebook version. It's out of print and all used copies on Amazon ship from the US. If anybody in the UK has a spare copy available...........

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 16 Nov 19 at 12:04pm
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Oinks View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:11pm
Just read this review on Amazon...

I have no connection with the world of sailing. I do not know how to sail. I have not seen a real sailboat outside of television. If I happen to come across a TV show about sailing while surfing channels, I will flick to another channel.

Why then do I give this book 5 stars?

Because this is a wonderful book about self-coaching yourself to achieve a goal. The book just happens to use sailboat racing as the area of application. The authors (the late) Eric Twiname, and former sailing champion (now coach) Cathy Foster describe practical, proven methods that you can use achieve greater success in winning competitions.

I first heard about this book from another book, "Four Practical Revolutions in Management", a book that has nothing to do with sailing. That book's authors, Shoji Shiba (renowned quality professor formerly from MIT Sloan), and David Walden (in a real sense, one of the original programmers of the internet) regard "Sail, Race, Win" as one of the best self-coaching books they have seen.

I agree with them. This book is focused on: a)self-coaching yourself to win b)to win in a competition c)to win a sailing competition.

If you have no interest in sailing (I don't), you can easily translate some of the tips about sailing into whatever domain you are in (say, another sport, business, professional development, career, etc.).

Be warned that there is a lot of sailing terms: tacking, heeling, kicking straps, boat tuning, etc. The book simply assumes you know what these are. You can just gloss over them as you read (I still don't know what these terms mean).

Chapter 5 - Ways of Learning was especially enlightening for me. If you think that study and practice are the only two ways to learn, this chapter is required reading as it describes the many other ways. The chapter on Mental Mindsets as a primary cause for failing to win is just spot on. These two chapters alone is worth more than the book.

This book is very focused and very practical and really useful and I have no hesitation recommending it.
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by CT249

One thing that interests me is that racing cyclists train obsessively and often have coaching and training plans - and yet the people I know who have switched from sailing to cycling tend to do extremely well in cycling. One of the mid pack guys at my old club's mid-pack Laser fleet went back to cycling and basically would choose which two state titles (in his age group) he wanted each year, then go out and get them. Another who was a good windsurfer is a multiple national masters champ who knocks off the world champ and world record holder.

That seems to indicate that it's not that sailors are slack arses per se. It may just be that training is difficult because you spend so much time driving to the club, rigging and de-rigging.


Sail, Race, Win - leant out my copy about 20 years ago and never got it back :(

I wonder if the above is related to the breadth of skills that sailors need to learn to get halfway competent - just been reading Range by David Epstein and the general thrust of the book is that wide experience often trumps narrow specialisation.

Agree with Do Different - you don't need some super-duper medalled coach (not that's its bad if you have the option). Mostly you just need a competent observer to offer feedback. Many simpler sports base most of their coaching to endlessly reinforcing the fundamental skills. In sailing there's a belief that once you've done something once you don't need to bother again, but most of us would see more benefit by just going back to polishing the basics on a more regular basis.




Edited by DiscoBall - 16 Nov 19 at 1:02pm
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:55pm
I think just about all of us have someone in our club that we respect and see as competent.

I would suggest getting them to follow us round a short course in between or before standard races would pick up 3 or 4 things that dont look perfect. Perhaps they may ask you to do the same thing for them?

You dont need to be a superstar to pick out some tweaks from outside the boat.

Training for the price of a post sail beer!
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Riv View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 6:24pm
Racing is a very complex activity. If I was still sailing Lasers, I would want a training in basic skills like roll tacking and holding position prior to a start.

I remember in one of the Bethwaite books, maybe "Fast handling techniques"? A report of a  very good sailor who said that he had similar speed to most people, it was at the start and turning round marks where he made the most gains.

I expect that some racing coaching maybe not focussed enough on the bits that make the biggest difference
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iansmithofotley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 7:46pm
I think that all of Eric Twiname's four books were very good and excellent reading (The Rules Book, Dinghy Team Racing, Start to Win and Sail, Race and Win).  Sail, Race and Win is more to do with self-coaching and the psychological side of sailboat racing.  I have a copy of the book (not for sale) but it was written just by Eric Twiname and, as far as I can remember, there is no mention of Cathy Foster.  Maybe Cathy amended the book after Eric's death. 

I would add that in Sail, Race and Win, Eric refers to another book on self-coaching called The Inner Game of Tennis by W. Timothy Gallwey (an ex-professional tennis player and coach).  Again it is all about self coaching, the mental side of sport, overcoming mental obstacles, reflection and other mental issues in sports.  Many of the topics discussed can be applied to racing sailboats.  I have a copy of the book (not for sale) but I must admit though, it is a bit 'deep' for me.

I bought Start to Win nearly forty years ago and it is still the best book that I have ever read on sailboat racing.  I have read it scores of times and I still read it today.
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iansmithofotley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 8:57pm
I forgot to mention - there is a lot of stuff about The Inner Game of Tennis on 'You Tube'.

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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

I bought Start to Win nearly forty years ago and it is still the best book that I have ever read on sailboat racing.  I have read it scores of times and I still read it today.

Me too, utterly brilliant book.
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