Race training
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13463
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 6:05pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Race training
Posted By: H2
Subject: Race training
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:29pm
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Following on from the post on how to stop sailing declining it got me thinking about how hard it is to get race training in our sport. If you think about most other individual sports (i.e. Tennis, Golf etc) it is extremely common for people to get training throughout their playing lifecycle. There is a whole industry set up to provide training to people who have been playing for years but want to continue to improve. I am not interested in doing a RYA course because what I want is someone who can help me improve in areas that I know I am weak. For example, sailing in waves down wind (lack of practice) or how to maximise boat speed in marginal planing conditions. All of us have areas that we know we are strong and weak on in our sailing. Over the years I have gone looking for training and have had a bit of a hit and miss battle. I do not want to spell my experience out here but lets just say its been an interesting journey! My point though is WHY? Why do we not have a well established industry selling training to individuals or small groups (clubs or fleets) with stuff going on each weekend? ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Replies:
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:38pm
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Because most of the potential trainers have spent the week cutting sails or making boats, and they would like some time off at weekends.
And with the growth of RYA approved clubs, the pressure is on to have RYA qualifications before someone can coach. And it's a " difficult" situation when the student for a coaches course may know more than the person running it. The days of getting the club expert to pass knowledge on seems to have gone. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:46pm
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OK - good points and I agree that many of the people I spoke too work in the trade during the week but I was happy to do the training during the week if that helped. The RYA thing is a blind alley in my mind, I was happy to pay outside of the club so there was no need for the person to be qualified - if they were qualified in my eyes then I was willing to pay them cash and launch off any number of public slipways so there is no need to involve a club or the RYA. There have to be people around who are too tired and old to make sails but too young to shuffle off to retirement. Is there really such a lack of demand that no one is willing to supply services? ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:50pm
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Google "Dinghy racing training" - a few RYA links and then straight into books you can read. Google "Tennis Training" or "Improve my Golf" and get ready to be swamped. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:53pm
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And before grumph says it, dinghy sailors are careful with their money...
I've done a little 1:1 or small group tuition over the years as a volunteer, but somehow when you suggest payment, almost no one is interested. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 4:19pm
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Crazy that people are happy to spend money on kit, when spending 75% less on training is likely to have more effect on their finishing position.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 5:03pm
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It is much harder to provided sailing coaching than tennis coaching, but now with wireless headsets and go-pro's it ought to be possible. How many clubs have a 'pro' who splits their time between coaching, boat repairs, chandlery etc?
1:1 tennis coaching is typically £20-30/hr. Less in a group, obvs. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 5:05pm
I do agree that sailors are pikey. However, I have run two training events in the last few years. One was class specific and we had a well known pro come and help us out for a day and the second was for Asymmetric with the trainer provided by RS and in both cases we had no issue getting 10 people along and covering the costs. I would be willing to pay a few hundred for a days training 1-2-1. No idea if that is pikey or not but £200 a day at 220 working days is £44k pre tax so can't be far off what is fair. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 5:08pm
Also - you can play tennis most days regardless of weather but if the wind blows too little or too much or if the waves don't show up it can be hard to do sailing coaching every day which means the person being trained has to be willing to sign up and pay for a few days on the basis that then some of that time will be usable to achieve the coaching goals expected. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 6:07pm
I was going to say, it's because y'all rely on individual classes to give training at regattas and the like and since we don't have a Handicap racing class association which is something I'm hoping to persuade folk to change, there's not much on offer for us mongrel handicappers. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 6:18pm
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Oh and I'm avaiable for lee bow tidal training for £200 p/hr ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 6:53pm
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Some of what can usefully be coached is very boat specific. Some is the same on a Sunsail 36 as it is on a Laser. There is a problem that you could attmpt to coach 5 boats and they'd want to do 5 different things all the time. You could sail upwind just looking to go through the waves better, you could fiddle with controls, you could concentrate on trim. You could be thinking about judging when to tack on shifts and bends or tsctics relative to other boats. You can hire someone to buzz around the fleet telling people what they are doing wrong, maybe shooting some video to discuss afterwards. I've seen that work well. Some of the coaching in RS classes has been excellent. I can't see it paying anyone's mortgage though. Myself, I could probably race better if I got fitter and did a bit of structured practice before and after races. Maybe actually reading some of my collection of sailing books again might help? Doing a ntionals or a few open meetings can improve your club sailing. If you want to improve, I think choosing a class with some training events and accessible opens or nationals is a good move. Also a class with a high standard, go and learn from some people you respect.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 7:05pm
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I think iGRF makes a fair point, and he is right to acknowledge that the problem may be due to his liking for obscure classes and handicap racing. I have had a fair amount of coaching from sailmakers in recent years, as a club fleet we have fed and watered them, had a whip round and we all sport their wares, but they only offer this support if they can perceive the commercial benefit. We usually organise this on a Friday ... the sailmaker/coach can justify it as a working day to his employers ... and we don’t lose a racing weekend. Also most of the mainstream racing classes have training officers and run coaching weekends. And for the coaching itself, to get the most from it you need at least two similar boats with sailors of similar skills, and better still a few similar boats, again different classes conspire against this. Ironically the people who we organise this for rarely turn up ... so there may be some truth that some are happy to get around the course and enjoy the ride. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 10:16pm
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I don’t think the tennis/golf coaching model lends itself to sailing very well. Our sport is (gloriously) much more complicated than getting a pro to sort out your serve or swing. A great book to read on these darkening winter evenings is Eric Twiname’s Sail, Race and Win. Part of its preamble is “The aim is to move you up the fleet by coaching yourself”. At the end of the day, only you can drag yourself up the pecking order. This book’s a gem. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 7:32am
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How many Olympic medals would GBR have had since 2000 if they’d all coached themselves? Coaching works, but it is time consuming, expensive and needs doing frequently.
Importantly, coaching doesn’t just improve your technique, it keeps you engaged in the activity making it less likely you’ll drop out. But, of course, mid week sailing coaching would be impractical for anyone working, except maybe a few weeks in summer. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:51am
| And of course the focus and level of the training is very important. The RYA training is just fantastic at creating medal winners. But my impression of the supporting Squad system means that a significant number drop out under the pressure. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:00am
FTFY It's been my experience re 'training' that you can lead a horse to water... Many a time over the years back in the day when called upon to offer 'advice' to would be racing boardsailors, you'd explain what is required then watch as they do the exact opposite. The fact is we need participants, not winners and losers, we tend to only take advice from the 'winners' and I'm here to tell you that for the most part they aint always nice 'particiapants' and nearly always very bad losers. I like to find my own way about, sometimes, in fact these days, most times it's wrong, but I like to think it doesn't take from the sense of enjoyment of a race. Sure I'd be happy for someone with greater knowledge and skill to offer suggestions, but are they going to improve my handicap? No, nothing they are going to do is going to undo the new unfairness that I find myself surrounded with in my boat versus my friends in theirs and that I find more annoying than any sense of curable incompetence that might beset me, and anyway old dog new tricks? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 11:45am
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"How many Olympic medals would GBR have had since 2000 if they’d all coached themselves? " I wasn't really talking about sailing at that level but, to some degree, even at that level those sailors will have self-coached quite a lot. One of our most famous sailors Rodney Pattison was renowned for eschewing the squad/coaching route. Input from a suitably experienced coach will always help, undeniable. But the greater benefit would be in putting in the time on the water practicing and refining those things. Not something most of us can afford to do a lot of. A remarkable example of that...a well known international sailor at my club, in the lead up to a major event, was often seen out sailing for an hour or so by 7.30am during weekdays. No coaches in sight at that time of the morning!
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Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 7:11pm
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There's also a very big practical difference between getting a tennis coach for a few hours to getting someone to do something similar for sailing.
The tennis or golf coach will come to wherever you play and stand there watching you, and giving advice. At the most they may bring a camera and a racquet or clubs with them. A coach who came to a sailing club for individual coaching on all but the smallest of ponds won't be able to coach from standing on the side of the lake. This means they have to bring a boat with them to coach from. RIBs and the petrol and maintenance needed for them are very expensive. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 7:55pm
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I cannot see anything especially difficult about organising dinghy coaching. It all comes down to demand, if the demand was there it would happen no question. Riders regularly trail horses to visit coaches at all levels from local instructors, through national competitors and even up to international level. Also many golfers sign up to regular coaching at no small cost. It would take very little for groups to travel to the home club of a "celeb" competitor or arrange for their own club RIB to be available to carry a coach. The fact the people are finding it difficult to get private adult coaching simply shows that the majority are not interested.
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:12pm
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Forget coaching, most club dinghy racers don't even practice!
Launch just in time for the 5 minute fun, finish the race and come straight in for a pint. |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:31pm
Lol but so true for most of us 
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:38pm
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Exactly my point and who's to say that's a bad thing. |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:50pm
Oi! I resemble that remark
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 9:13pm
Either that, or those that might be offering the service are either very busy or really not very good at marketing? Back about 15 years ago, a local class hired Jim Saltonstall to give his opinions for an evening. Things can be made to happen. I know what you mean, it's hard enough to drum up 20 people to pay £3 each to make a 'rules and tactics' presentation happen, with free bar snacks and a top level presenter. One problem might be that dinghy sailors are reluctant to take advice from 'second rate' performers? If you're not God, Howie Hamlin, Nick Craig, Paul Elvstrom, Lawrie Smith or similar, do we actually want to listen to someone who gets beaten? It's a rare combination in sailng to be competent at a very high level, good at communication/teaching and skint enough to want to coach people for a pittance.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 8:55am
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Most tennis coaches aren't Roger Federer, or football coaches Maradona. I think people understand that at club level you get club coaches.
But, as someone pointed out earlier, if we don't even practice solo or in pairs or in groups, what chances for someone being hired to run something and people showing up? My most successful coaching sessions are for Sailability members and volunteers for an hour at the end of our Wednesday sessions, sailing Hansa 303s. But then I have a captive audience. The difference has been noted both at Hansa events and at Laser club racing at a different club. Coaching, even by someone who has no gold medals, can work... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 9:56am
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I wouldn't like to comment on the expectations or dedication of others. Just to speak from my own experience in an earlier life. In my teens and twenties I used to compete myself and school young horses. The biggest thing is that you cannot see yourself, that is to say an observer is pretty much essential when training at whatever level or discipline you are engaged in on the day. I've spent endless sessions with a mate at home being watched and continually corrected on position and timing. I've been slightly surprised getting into sailing more than twenty years ago that people were not interested in going out in pairs to watch each other. Not hiking out as far as you think, trapezing as low or keeping the boat as flat. Just a thought. edit. 10.05. reread and sounds a bit virtuous, didn't mean to be, I'm no purist.
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Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 9:57am
I wonder what the current price , even with fleet discounts of the contemporary version of 'Swedish Hearse + flagship/ RIB ' that Messers Saltonstall et al had in the mid 90s ... |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 10:05am
Indeed and there is enough of a pool out there of people who do have 'lesser' but still isgnificant achievements who can coach effectively. but with the absence of the squad system in the past and the current antipathy displayed towards it here it's perhaps surprising ... taking an example from Dance , there are a lot of teachers who were 'vocationally' trained (and got the exact same training and education as the Darcey Bussells, Wayne Sleep or Carlos Acostas of this world ) but either they realised their talent was going to run at corps/ coryphee / junior soloist levle or they struggled to cope with company life - so they settle down for a more stable life teaching and coaching, and maybe doing the odd bit of jobbing work ... Equally there are practitioners who have performed at the highest level who enjoy teaching class for randon recreational dancers , because of the different pressure recreational dancers put on themselves vs other pros.... |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 10:35am
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Maybe as a group sailors are not so bothered about achieving really good style / technique / performance as some other sports / activities because sailing can give very rewarding feedback without being anything close to the perfect sailor. Phew, too long a sentence. I have asked the question before, is sailing really a sport or more like a pleasant pastime? Obviously there is no definitive answer to this. Different strokes for different folks.
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 11:45am
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One thing that interests me is that racing cyclists train obsessively and often have coaching and training plans - and yet the people I know who have switched from sailing to cycling tend to do extremely well in cycling. One of the mid pack guys at my old club's mid-pack Laser fleet went back to cycling and basically would choose which two state titles (in his age group) he wanted each year, then go out and get them. Another who was a good windsurfer is a multiple national masters champ who knocks off the world champ and world record holder. That seems to indicate that it's not that sailors are slack arses per se. It may just be that training is difficult because you spend so much time driving to the club, rigging and de-rigging.
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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 11:48am
Best technique book ever written, by a looooooooooong way.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:04pm
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I wish there was an ebook version. It's out of print and all used copies on Amazon ship from the US. If anybody in the UK has a spare copy available........... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:11pm
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Just read this review on Amazon... I have no connection with the world of sailing. I do not know how to sail. I have not seen a real sailboat outside of television. If I happen to come across a TV show about sailing while surfing channels, I will flick to another channel.
Why then do I give this book 5 stars? Because this is a wonderful book about self-coaching yourself to achieve a goal. The book just happens to use sailboat racing as the area of application. The authors (the late) Eric Twiname, and former sailing champion (now coach) Cathy Foster describe practical, proven methods that you can use achieve greater success in winning competitions. I first heard about this book from another book, "Four Practical Revolutions in Management", a book that has nothing to do with sailing. That book's authors, Shoji Shiba (renowned quality professor formerly from MIT Sloan), and David Walden (in a real sense, one of the original programmers of the internet) regard "Sail, Race, Win" as one of the best self-coaching books they have seen. I agree with them. This book is focused on: a)self-coaching yourself to win b)to win in a competition c)to win a sailing competition. If you have no interest in sailing (I don't), you can easily translate some of the tips about sailing into whatever domain you are in (say, another sport, business, professional development, career, etc.). Be warned that there is a lot of sailing terms: tacking, heeling, kicking straps, boat tuning, etc. The book simply assumes you know what these are. You can just gloss over them as you read (I still don't know what these terms mean). Chapter 5 - Ways of Learning was especially enlightening for me. If you think that study and practice are the only two ways to learn, this chapter is required reading as it describes the many other ways. The chapter on Mental Mindsets as a primary cause for failing to win is just spot on. These two chapters alone is worth more than the book. This book is very focused and very practical and really useful and I have no hesitation recommending it. |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:55pm
Sail, Race, Win - leant out my copy about 20 years ago and never got it back :( I wonder if the above is related to the breadth of skills that sailors need to learn to get halfway competent - just been reading Range by David Epstein and the general thrust of the book is that wide experience often trumps narrow specialisation. Agree with Do Different - you don't need some super-duper medalled coach (not that's its bad if you have the option). Mostly you just need a competent observer to offer feedback. Many simpler sports base most of their coaching to endlessly reinforcing the fundamental skills. In sailing there's a belief that once you've done something once you don't need to bother again, but most of us would see more benefit by just going back to polishing the basics on a more regular basis. |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 12:55pm
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I think just about all of us have someone in our club that we respect and see as competent.
I would suggest getting them to follow us round a short course in between or before standard races would pick up 3 or 4 things that dont look perfect. Perhaps they may ask you to do the same thing for them? You dont need to be a superstar to pick out some tweaks from outside the boat. Training for the price of a post sail beer! |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 6:24pm
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Racing is a very complex activity. If I was still sailing Lasers, I would want a training in basic skills like roll tacking and holding position prior to a start. I remember in one of the Bethwaite books, maybe "Fast handling techniques"? A report of a very good sailor who said that he had similar speed to most people, it was at the start and turning round marks where he made the most gains. I expect that some racing coaching maybe not focussed enough on the bits that make the biggest difference ------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74. |
Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 7:46pm
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I think that all of Eric Twiname's four books were very good and excellent reading (The Rules Book, Dinghy Team Racing, Start to Win and Sail, Race and Win). Sail, Race and Win is more to do with self-coaching and the psychological side of sailboat racing. I have a copy of the book (not for sale) but it was written just by Eric Twiname and, as far as I can remember, there is no mention of Cathy Foster. Maybe Cathy amended the book after Eric's death. I would add that in Sail, Race and Win, Eric refers to another book on self-coaching called The Inner Game of Tennis by W. Timothy Gallwey (an ex-professional tennis player and coach). Again it is all about self coaching, the mental side of sport, overcoming mental obstacles, reflection and other mental issues in sports. Many of the topics discussed can be applied to racing sailboats. I have a copy of the book (not for sale) but I must admit though, it is a bit 'deep' for me. I bought Start to Win nearly forty years ago and it is still the best book that I have ever read on sailboat racing. I have read it scores of times and I still read it today.
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Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 8:57pm
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I forgot to mention - there is a lot of stuff about The Inner Game of Tennis on 'You Tube'. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 9:19pm
Me too, utterly brilliant book. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 7:20am
Plenty of copies on ebay. Another book I've found good is 'Winning in One Designs' by Dave Perry.
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 9:04am
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"Another book I've found good is 'Winning in One Designs' by Dave Perry" Love the intro bit where he is trying to explain the complexities of sailing to an American footballer.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 9:56am
Good spot eric_c thanks, bought the one example of the updated edition. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 10:03am
| The piece about sailing with Elvstrom is wonderful. A snapshot on how the real superstars are still sailors, but in a slightly different way. |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 11:24am
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"The piece about sailing with Elvstrom is wonderful. " Anyone out there sailed with any proper rock stars? If so, what did you learn? I sailed a 707 for a season with some top 14 sailors sometime back now and what I learnt was my place in the overall (sailing) scheme of things!
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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 12:43pm
| I once sailed with the top 470 sailor in the country at an event in Kiel. On the way out to the start he passed me over a weight jacket and said “you will be needing this”. I had never worn weight before and this was 4 bottles. I was all over the place. This guy was fast off wind and he did it by using large course alterations to pick up waves and surf down them, and there was me frenetically in and out- adjusting my height continually , trying to pump when he shouted, with 10kg of water bottles on my chest. I have never had a tougher days sailing. I did however get better as the week progressed, and it an amazing feeling if I ever sailed without a weight jacket after that-so easy to move around! Funny though he never asked me to sail with him again-I wonder why? |
Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 12:43pm
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The role of a coach is to provide an unbiased perspective from outside the boat. It is very difficult to be truely objective when self coaching due to comformation bias. That said self coaching is obviously very import because we can't expect to have a coach every time we go on the water.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 3:40pm
I guess that some things have improved ... I found that the secret of wearing bottles was to surreptitiously empty them when they got to be hard work ... mind you I was the helm, tended to wear them on the first beat then dump them. Now those big old heavy jackets you took down to the water’s edge, they were something else and did not get much lighter through the race! Happy days ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 3:49pm
| Yes it was a good day when they banned them. |
Posted By: RTFM
Date Posted: 01 Dec 19 at 7:49am
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Don't be tempted to buy the Eric Twiname’s 'Sail, Race and Win' book off eBay from a company called 'World of Books' who advertise this book for sale. Avoid them. Poor seller, took 10 days to get it - and then only after opening up an eBay case.. ------------- Nobby. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Dec 19 at 9:02am
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I bought a copy from them two weeks ago and it arrived in a couple of days so no complaints from me. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Dec 19 at 5:29pm
| Nick Craig's book is good IMHO. |