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fudheid
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Topic: Technical protest Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:50pm |
Originally posted by Brass
Originally posted by gbrspratt
Example: at a club Wednesday night race. You have a few development class dinghy's racing. Amongst themselves they notice one of the boats has either found a loop hole in the rules or has done something illegal. So one helpful chap protests. What is the process here? Because the rule relates to the class and not an on the water event? How does a local club deal with it? Is it out of their hands or do they have to get the RYA and/or class involved to help? Or make their own ruling?
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A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions.
Class rules, for the most part, are not all that arcane. It's up to the protesting boat to draw the attention of the protest committee to what she considers the relevant rules to be, explain how they think the rule applies, and present evidence of facts that they think show the rule was broken.
Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'.
While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.
78.1 While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules and that her measurement or rating certificate, if any, remains valid. In addition, the boat shall also comply at other times specified in the class rules, the notice of race or the sailing instructions.
So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid : - if the protesting boat was involved in or saw the incident, she is required to hail 'Protest' and if necessary display a red flag at the first reasonably opportunity, and because the breach is 'ongoing' any time during the race will do, with respect to the breach the instant before;
- if the protesting boat was not involved in or saw the breach, but is just relying on the jungle tom-toms, the protesting boat is required to inform the the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity.
So i could as a non sailing / racing competitor write to the alleged offender stating which class rule and then submit a protest to the race club / OA / MNA /World sailing depending on whether class is national, international etc?
The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows: - The protesting boat delivers a written protest,
- The protest committee hears the protest (the protest committee might prepare themselves for the hearing by having some discussions with a class measurer or other person associated with the class AND OBTAIN A COPY OF THE CLASS RULES). The protest committee might, if it was uneasy, also seek advice of their RYA Regional Rules Adviser.
- If it is alleged that the rule was broken in more than one race, this is technically multiple protests, being heard together. The protest committee should focus on the last alleged incident/race, and get out the relevant facts, and hear arguments from both parties about how the class rules apply. Parties might call as witnesses, Class Measurers, or other Class Association officials or 'eminent persons' to provide opinion evidence about how the class rules apply, or, if the protest committee had a suitable contact, the protest committee could call them as a witness. The protest committee should then look at the class rules for themselves, not relying on what someone said the class rules say, and form a conclusion about whether or not the class rule was broken. This is the point at which the protest committee may fall into doubt and seek advice of an authority responsible for interpreting the rule in accordance with rule 64.3b.
- If the conclusion is that the class rule was broken it should then consider rule 64.3a and then, it may decide to penalise the boat in the race considered.
- .The protest committee should then consider facts relevant to earlier races in the series (this is why you do the last incident first), obtaining further evidence if necessary, and reach conclusions whether the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, and if so, may penalise the boat in those earlier races (rule 64.3c).
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Cheers you
only me from over the sea......
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Brass
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:34pm |
Originally posted by gbrspratt
Example: at a club Wednesday night race. You have a few development class dinghy's racing. Amongst themselves they notice one of the boats has either found a loop hole in the rules or has done something illegal. So one helpful chap protests. What is the process here? Because the rule relates to the class and not an on the water event? How does a local club deal with it? Is it out of their hands or do they have to get the RYA and/or class involved to help? Or make their own ruling?
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A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions.
Class rules, for the most part, are not all that arcane. It's up to the protesting boat to draw the attention of the protest committee to what she considers the relevant rules to be, explain how they think the rule applies, and present evidence of facts that they think show the rule was broken.
Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'.
While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.
78.1 While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules and that her measurement or rating certificate, if any, remains valid. In addition, the boat shall also comply at other times specified in the class rules, the notice of race or the sailing instructions.
So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid : - if the protesting boat was involved in or saw the incident, she is required to hail 'Protest' and if necessary display a red flag at the first reasonably opportunity, and because the breach is 'ongoing' any time during the race will do, with respect to the breach the instant before;
- if the protesting boat was not involved in or saw the breach, but is just relying on the jungle tom-toms, the protesting boat is required to inform the the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity.
The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows: - The protesting boat delivers a written protest,
- The protest committee hears the protest (the protest committee might prepare themselves for the hearing by having some discussions with a class measurer or other person associated with the class AND OBTAIN A COPY OF THE CLASS RULES). The protest committee might, if it was uneasy, also seek advice of their RYA Regional Rules Adviser.
- If it is alleged that the rule was broken in more than one race, this is technically multiple protests, being heard together. The protest committee should focus on the last alleged incident/race, and get out the relevant facts, and hear arguments from both parties about how the class rules apply. Parties might call as witnesses, Class Measurers, or other Class Association officials or 'eminent persons' to provide opinion evidence about how the class rules apply, or, if the protest committee had a suitable contact, the protest committee could call them as a witness. The protest committee should then look at the class rules for themselves, not relying on what someone said the class rules say, and form a conclusion about whether or not the class rule was broken. This is the point at which the protest committee may fall into doubt and seek advice of an authority responsible for interpreting the rule in accordance with rule 64.3b.
- If the conclusion is that the class rule was broken it should then consider rule 64.3a and then, it may decide to penalise the boat in the race considered.
- .The protest committee should then consider facts relevant to earlier races in the series (this is why you do the last incident first), obtaining further evidence if necessary, and reach conclusions whether the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, and if so, may penalise the boat in those earlier races (rule 64.3c).
Edited by Brass - 13 Nov 19 at 11:44pm
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sargesail
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:03pm |
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald
Whilst of course the best option is to get someone with an aura of authority and not involved in any future protest to speak to the transgressors . We want to race rather than sit in protest rooms, why dont you revert to original settings and avoid future issues? |
I’d add to the excellent comments from Jim C and Rupert that a properly constituted protest also gives the protestee rights, including appeal. That’s especially important with abc pass rules issue.
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Rupert
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 9:30pm |
Looks like the CA tech sec would be the first port of call.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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gbrspratt
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 8:09pm |
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald
I would have thought some initial discussion to avoid the full protest would be useful.
I stand aside to your higher knowledge but would prefer to be out sailing |
It's purely because it's development based and mainly down to interpretation of the rules. So it's about how to find who has the final say at club level. Otherwise the discussion is endless and gets nowhere.
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ian.r.mcdonald
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 8:00pm |
I would have thought some initial discussion to avoid the full protest would be useful.
I stand aside to your higher knowledge but would prefer to be out sailing
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Rupert
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 7:54pm |
One would hope that the protest committee would have an aura of authority?
And would find facts and come to a conclusion based upon them.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 7:28pm |
Because a properly formulated protest hearing is the civilised way to sort out disagreements about measurement rules. The alternatives include prolonged bad feeling, back biting, mistrust and the ever popular online accusations... Your option appears to assume a presumption of guilt, even of cheating.
Edited by JimC - 13 Nov 19 at 7:30pm
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ian.r.mcdonald
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 7:08pm |
Whilst of course the best option is to get someone with an aura of authority and not involved in any future protest to speak to the transgressors . We want to race rather than sit in protest rooms, why dont you revert to original settings and avoid future issues?
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gbrspratt
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Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 6:41pm |
Thanks Jim, that I think clears up my random thoughts. Although I didn't realise they could basically back date a protest and remove your results from previous races.
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