Racing Rules: Technical protest

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Technical protest

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Topic: Technical protest

Posted By: gbrspratt
Subject: Technical protest
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 6:04pm

Example: at a club Wednesday night race. You have a few development class dinghy's racing. Amongst themselves they notice one of the boats has either found a loop hole in the rules or has done something illegal. So one helpful chap protests. What is the process here? Because the rule relates to the class and not an on the water event? How does a local club deal with it? Is it out of their hands or do they have to get the RYA and/or class involved to help? Or make their own ruling?

Cheers

Replies:

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 6:22pm

64.3 Decisions on Protests Concerning Class Rules
(a) When the protest committee finds that deviations in excess of
tolerances specified in the class rules were caused by damage
or normal wear and do not improve the performance of the
boat, it shall not penalize her. However, the boat shall not race
again until the deviations have been corrected, except when the
protest committee decides there is or has been no reasonable
opportunity to do so.
(b) When the protest committee is in doubt about the meaning of a
class rule, it shall refer its questions, together with the relevant
facts, to an authority responsible for interpreting the rule. In
making its decision, the committee shall be bound by the reply
of the authority.
(c) When a boat is penalized under a class rule and the protest
committee decides that the boat also broke the same rule in
earlier races in the same event, the penalty may be imposed for
all such races. No further protest is necessary.
(d) When a boat penalized under a class rule states in writing that
she intends to appeal, she may compete in subsequent races
without changes to the boat. However, if she fails to appeal or
the appeal is decided against her, she shall be disqualified
without a further hearing from all subsequent races in which
she competed.
(e) Measurement costs arising from a protest involving a class rule
shall be paid by the unsuccessful party unless the protest
committee decides otherwise

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 6:30pm

(b) When the protest committee is in doubt about the meaning of a
class rule, it shall refer its questions, together with the relevant
facts, to an authority responsible for interpreting the rule. In
making its decision, the committee shall be bound by the reply
of the authority.

Is the rya responsible for rule interpretation?
So the club is entitled to make a ruling if they believe they understand? But what if it has further ramifications to the class? For example is actually on half the fleet but no one noticed the error before?

Thanks for the help so far!

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 6:38pm

The authority depends on the class. AIUI if its an International class then its technically ISAF/World Sailing, although I'd seek advice from the RYA first, if its a National Class then the RYA, and if its a CA managed class then the Class Association. Nothing a club PC decides is binding on the CA, since the club is not a responsible authority. It would of course be sensible to notify the CA, since they may wish to correct, clarify or even change the rule depending...

The easiest and most obvious option in most circumstances will be simply to get the boat remeasured by an official CA measurer. Of course someone will need to pay their expenses as noted in the rule.

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 6:41pm

Thanks Jim, that I think clears up my random thoughts. Although I didn't realise they could basically back date a protest and remove your results from previous races.

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 7:08pm

Whilst of course the best option is to get someone with an aura of authority and not involved in any future protest to speak to the transgressors . We want to race rather than sit in protest rooms, why dont you revert to original settings and avoid future issues?

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 7:28pm

Because a properly formulated protest hearing is the civilised way to sort out disagreements about measurement rules. The alternatives include prolonged bad feeling, back biting, mistrust and the ever popular online accusations... Your option appears to assume a presumption of guilt, even of cheating.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 7:54pm

One would hope that the protest committee would have an aura of authority?

And would find facts and come to a conclusion based upon them.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 8:00pm

I would have thought some initial discussion to avoid the full protest would be useful.

I stand aside to your higher knowledge but would prefer to be out sailing

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 8:09pm

Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

I would have thought some initial discussion to avoid the full protest would be useful.

I stand aside to your higher knowledge but would prefer to be out sailing

It's purely because it's development based and mainly down to interpretation of the rules. So it's about how to find who has the final say at club level. Otherwise the discussion is endless and gets nowhere.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 9:30pm

Looks like the CA tech sec would be the first port of call.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:03pm

Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

Whilst of course the best option is to get someone with an aura of authority and not involved in any future protest to speak to the transgressors . We want to race rather than sit in protest rooms, why dont you revert to original settings and avoid future issues?

I’d add to the excellent comments from Jim C and Rupert that a properly constituted protest also gives the protestee rights, including appeal. That’s especially important with abc pass rules issue.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 13 Nov 19 at 11:34pm

Originally posted by gbrspratt

Example: at a club Wednesday night race. You have a few development class dinghy's racing. Amongst themselves they notice one of the boats has either found a loop hole in the rules or has done something illegal. So one helpful chap protests. What is the process here? Because the rule relates to the class and not an on the water event? How does a local club deal with it? Is it out of their hands or do they have to get the RYA and/or class involved to help? Or make their own ruling?

A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions.

Class rules, for the most part, are not all that arcane. It's up to the protesting boat to draw the attention of the protest committee to what she considers the relevant rules to be, explain how they think the rule applies, and present evidence of facts that they think show the rule was broken.

Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'.

While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.

78.1 While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules and that her measurement or rating certificate, if any, remains valid. In addition, the boat shall also comply at other times specified in the class rules, the notice of race or the sailing instructions.

So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid :

if the protesting boat was involved in or saw the incident, she is required to hail 'Protest' and if necessary display a red flag at the first reasonably opportunity, and because the breach is 'ongoing' any time during the race will do, with respect to the breach the instant before;
if the protesting boat was not involved in or saw the breach, but is just relying on the jungle tom-toms, the protesting boat is required to inform the the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity.

The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows:

The protesting boat delivers a written protest,
The protest committee hears the protest (the protest committee might prepare themselves for the hearing by having some discussions with a class measurer or other person associated with the class AND OBTAIN A COPY OF THE CLASS RULES). The protest committee might, if it was uneasy, also seek advice of their RYA Regional Rules Adviser.
If it is alleged that the rule was broken in more than one race, this is technically multiple protests, being heard together. The protest committee should focus on the last alleged incident/race, and get out the relevant facts, and hear arguments from both parties about how the class rules apply. Parties might call as witnesses, Class Measurers, or other Class Association officials or 'eminent persons' to provide opinion evidence about how the class rules apply, or, if the protest committee had a suitable contact, the protest committee could call them as a witness. The protest committee should then look at the class rules for themselves, not relying on what someone said the class rules say, and form a conclusion about whether or not the class rule was broken. This is the point at which the protest committee may fall into doubt and seek advice of an authority responsible for interpreting the rule in accordance with rule 64.3b.
If the conclusion is that the class rule was broken it should then consider rule 64.3a and then, it may decide to penalise the boat in the race considered.
.The protest committee should then consider facts relevant to earlier races in the series (this is why you do the last incident first), obtaining further evidence if necessary, and reach conclusions whether the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, and if so, may penalise the boat in those earlier races (rule 64.3c).

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 3:50pm

Originally posted by Brass

A protest committee hearing any protest should do the best they can to reach appropriate conclusions and decisions.

Only if the protest committee is in genuine doubt about the meaning of a class rule should they go scurrying off to find an 'expert'.

While different class rules have a wide variety of provisions about when and where the class rules apply, rule 78.1 always covers the ground where there is an alleged physical breach.

78.1 While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules and that her measurement or rating certificate, if any, remains valid. In addition, the boat shall also comply at other times specified in the class rules, the notice of race or the sailing instructions.

So the rule applies 'while racing', the protest will apply to a specific race, and the breach will be 'an incident in the racing area', so, in accordance with rule61.1a, for the protest to be valid :

if the protesting boat was involved in or saw the incident, she is required to hail 'Protest' and if necessary display a red flag at the first reasonably opportunity, and because the breach is 'ongoing' any time during the race will do, with respect to the breach the instant before;
if the protesting boat was not involved in or saw the breach, but is just relying on the jungle tom-toms, the protesting boat is required to inform the the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity.

So i could as a non sailing / racing competitor write to the alleged offender stating which class rule and then submit a protest to the race club / OA / MNA /World sailing depending on whether class is national, international etc?

The path this should then normally take at a club is as follows:

The protesting boat delivers a written protest,
The protest committee hears the protest (the protest committee might prepare themselves for the hearing by having some discussions with a class measurer or other person associated with the class AND OBTAIN A COPY OF THE CLASS RULES). The protest committee might, if it was uneasy, also seek advice of their RYA Regional Rules Adviser.
If it is alleged that the rule was broken in more than one race, this is technically multiple protests, being heard together. The protest committee should focus on the last alleged incident/race, and get out the relevant facts, and hear arguments from both parties about how the class rules apply. Parties might call as witnesses, Class Measurers, or other Class Association officials or 'eminent persons' to provide opinion evidence about how the class rules apply, or, if the protest committee had a suitable contact, the protest committee could call them as a witness. The protest committee should then look at the class rules for themselves, not relying on what someone said the class rules say, and form a conclusion about whether or not the class rule was broken. This is the point at which the protest committee may fall into doubt and seek advice of an authority responsible for interpreting the rule in accordance with rule 64.3b.
If the conclusion is that the class rule was broken it should then consider rule 64.3a and then, it may decide to penalise the boat in the race considered.
.The protest committee should then consider facts relevant to earlier races in the series (this is why you do the last incident first), obtaining further evidence if necessary, and reach conclusions whether the boat also broke the same rule in earlier races in the same event, and if so, may penalise the boat in those earlier races (rule 64.3c).

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Nov 19 at 6:09pm

Originally posted by fudheid

So i could as a non sailing / racing competitor write to the alleged offender stating which class rule and then submit a protest to the race club / OA / MNA /World sailing depending on whether class is national, international etc?

A protest always goes to the race organiser - the club in 99% of cases. Its up to the club to choose whether they wish/need to involve a higher authority. Protests are technically made by other boats, presumably other competitors in the event, I don't think a unrelated party can open one, although anyone may make a report to a race committee about alleged misconduct.

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:21am

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA? if an international / national class? It's unethical to race with what you believe to be an 'out of class' boat. Isn't that what happened to Iker in the nacra's?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 8:47am

Isn't the point that the boat owner believes his/her boat to be within class, but someone else doesn't?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:32am

Originally posted by fudheid

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA?

Its still got to be tied to an event and an event organiser. How can it be anything else? Its hardly logical to accuse someone of breaking the rules if you can't/won't say when and where it happened. The notorious Nacra cheating happened at a particular event.

The rule application is strictly limited. There's nothing wrong with modifying your boat out of class. Nothing in the rules to stop you. It simply ceases to be a member of that class. What breaks the rules is entering an event claiming a boat to conform to class rules when it does not, be it deliberate cheating or a difference of opinion on rule interpretation.

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 10:55am

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by fudheid

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA?

Well actually it was at a few i believe but one was used in example.

The rule application is strictly limited. There's nothing wrong with modifying your boat out of class. Nothing in the rules to stop you. It simply ceases to be a member of that class. What breaks the rules is entering an event claiming a boat to conform to class rules when it does not, be it deliberate cheating or a difference of opinion on rule interpretation.

Its not about modifying out of class intentionally, its about a developing your class, the boat /rig / foils/ sails (whatever), making the boat faster / rig more effective, blades developing lift. it's about people spending money on their passion to make their boat quicker, finding a 'loophole' maybe and using it to go quicker, or thinking differently about a problem that begets a net gain on the water.

The class rules don't restrict it per se, as they are open rules (and they definitely don't mention any of these so called illegalities) the class are maybe very conservative (or very rich lol) and think they should be illegal, maybe they think protecting the staus quo is good for the fleet (maybe because it makes the rest of the fleet obsolete, everyones boats are neaerly from the same builder, with minor differences, unlike this huge gain) the measurer thinks they are legal, see above about Open rule development class. Some of it might be a cheap addition (like fairings?), but others might be expensive rig / rudder development.
But no one is protesting because of all the above examples (and the same reason no one protests at club or even open meetings) its not nice, no one wants to protest, it upsets people, noses get put out of joint, blah blah blah whats wrong that you can't protest and have a reasonable discussion / result, people will throw toys out of the pram, someone will incur costs...whatever. so no one finds the edge of the rule, no one finds the right or wrong answer, just grumbling and muttering about illegal boats.

So the position continues, another boat sports the addition, a few say 'hang on' we don't think that's legal....no one protests, informally the measurer says yes....

The point.

So why not have an 'informal' protest at a club, where it can be escalated to the RYA / World sailing and the technical geeks can help construct a better rule?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 11:06am

If the measurer says yes informally, why do you think you'll get a different result if you ask him more formally?

Most development classes have a process where CA members can propose rule changes if they think one is required.

TBH, if people don't want to do things properly and have a formal protest with all inbuilt checks and balances to ensure fairness then maybe they'd be better keeping their mouths shut. A protest might cause a bit of bad feeling, if people are stupid about it, but nothing to the bad feeling caused by months of backbiting, rumours, whispering in corners and everything you suggest is going on now.

Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 12:05pm

At heart is this any different from someone using a replica Laser sail in a club Laser fleet? Indeed there's probably more room to get a relative speed increase out of using a specially cut non-class legal Laser sail than chasing loop holes in development classes

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OK 2249
D-1 138

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 12:06pm

Originally posted by fudheid

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA? if an international / national class? It's unethical to race with what you believe to be an 'out of class' boat. Isn't that what happened to Iker in the nacra's

What a dick move that would be. If you can't prove that a boat broke a class rule how can you hope to prove that they broke rule 2?

In any case it won't work.

A boat or competitor shall not be penalised without a protest hearing (rule 63.1)

Nobody except a protest committee can hold a protest hearing (rule 63.1 second sentence).

A protest committee can only be appointed by an Organising Authority or a Race Committee (rule 91).

While an MNA may act under its disciplinary regulations, it has no power to act under rule 69 (rule 69.3).

If you think a boat broke a rule, and you are a 'boat', validly protest and get along to the protest hearing and argue your case.

If you find the protest procedure repugnant, then have the decency to keep your mouth shut.

Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 2:19pm

This highlights a whole raft of issues with handicap racing ... only those cognisant with a class will know what is class legal and what is not ... what is the difference between sailing a Laser with a knock off sail compared with a Merlin with a non woven sail? Do either make a difference to the time to complete the course ... probably not ... are either class legal?

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Happily living in the past

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 3:19pm

Its not really any different to class racing. If you enter a boat claiming it to be a member of class X then it must comply with all the class rules of Class X. If it doesn't that's cheating.
However there is not normally a requirement for boats to be a member of a recognised class in handicap races, so if you want to enter a boat that isn't a legal member of a class then you need to fully inform the RC so they can make a judgement about what handicap to allocate your mongrel. What they shouldn't do is refuse entry to mongrels.

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 2:53pm

I'm not protesting anyone, it's not handicap racing, I've no interest in lasers or training sails (and davidyacht Merlin's can have any material sail as long as it is single ply)
It's a development class.
I have the development on my boat, the measure says it's legal to me, the CA write to me saying I won't be allowed to compete in their open meetings with my boat in its current form. They are not protesting me, they are saying I won't be allowed to compete. Now who is making dick moves? And what is the non dick way of saying I'm legal? Have a protest at a sailing club in a normal club race, to set a precedent.
If the CA do this and rig the system to ensure it is out lawed (by having the addition on a 'friendly' boat) and then protesting it by another 'friendly' boat and finding a protest committee of approved CA members. Can that protest only be appealed by the two protest boats?.
If I'm not there to give the evidence I have regarding the rule? I just have to suck eggs?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 3:17pm

76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel
the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.3,
provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the
reason for doing so. On request the boat shall promptly be given the
reason in writing. The boat may request redress if she considers that
the rejection or exclusion is improper.

I believe there are only a very limited number of reasons an exclusion might be considered improper. A race organiser, so far as I am aware, is quite entitled to hold an event for (say) Merlin class boats that don't have such and such a feature. If you think about it the de May series for vintage boats is precisely that.

A protest at a club race doesn't set a precedent.

If you haven't broken a rule you can't be disqualified for breaking a rule. However I see no reason why an entry can't be refused. It is, of course, a very strange way of going about things: if you want to ban a development change the damn rules, but it doesn't appear to be prohibited.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 5:26pm

Interesting that the Merlin rules state a 'single ply' sail but laminate sails are allowed. Surely, by definition, a laminate has to have more than a single ply?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 1:17pm

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Interesting that the Merlin rules state a 'single ply' sail but laminate sails are allowed. Surely, by definition, a laminate has to have more than a single ply?

Ply is defined in the ERS ... Sheet of sail material, laminate is exactly that .

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 5:48pm

Ah, ok. They specifically prohibit sleeved luffs though the 'single ply' wording seems to do the same thing.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 6:33pm

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Ah, ok. They specifically prohibit sleeved luffs though the 'single ply' wording seems to do the same thing.

No double luffs. But ply is still ply. No matter it's construction method. What it stops you from doing is putting tapes through the middle of the sail making an old school tape drive sail. Or twin plying high load areas.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 7:27pm

It's an odd use of the expression 'single ply', plywood is made up of three or more 'plies' or layers, laminate sails are made up of three or more layers, typically two plies of polyester film and a third of some kind of scrim, all glued together.

Not sure what you mean by 'tape drive' in this context but I assume you are referring to UK Sailmakers variation of moulded laminate sail construction (first used, I believe, by North in their 3DL sails) where the sail is made in one piece over a former and the scrim is laid along stress lines?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 7:28pm

Anyway, back OT, what actually is the class and the mod that is exiting so much attention?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 8:04pm

Glad someone asked - I've been wondering if the question was PC.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 8:09pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Glad someone asked - I've been wondering if the question was PC.

PC?

Anyway the original question was just after a chat in the bar about what would happen in this scenario and I was curious to find out the truth from the knowledge forum here. It originates from Merlin's and putting a halyard bag in between the kicker/boom/mast.

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 8:19pm

Suddenly this thread makes sense and a protest is due

Before the haliard bag is made from mylar and attached to mast step,gooseneck and clew!

Is the rumour that new Merlins are north of £30k true?

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 8:51pm

Ok I get that it might be extra sail area but does it wrap around the mast/boom like the fairing does on the Musto/29er/49er might? That would definitely improve airflow that area though I'm not sure how much it would reduce overall drag, I suspect the difference would be considerably less than a missed shift or muffed tack.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 9:09pm

Sounds like a cynical attempt to bend the rules.

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Robert

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 9:23pm

Nothing cynical about it.
There's no rule to bend. That's the point. It's an open development class. You can spend thousands developing a lighter stiffer rig, faster sails, lighter build hulls (24kg of correctors as minimum!) When you invest in going quicker then went not look at every possibility? Or just keep the status quo? No new build, same sail designs, no development...
There's no rule about fences on rudders, so when does a fence become a wing (illegal)? How can you bend a rule when there is no rule?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 9:37pm

Lens footed sails weren't against the rules either, or any of the other tricks.

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Robert

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 11:07pm

Originally posted by fudheid

Nothing cynical about it.
There's no rule to bend. That's the point. It's an open development class. You can spend thousands developing a lighter stiffer rig, faster sails, lighter build hulls (24kg of correctors as minimum!) When you invest in going quicker then went not look at every possibility? Or just keep the status quo? No new build, same sail designs, no development...
There's no rule about fences on rudders, so when does a fence become a wing (illegal)? How can you bend a rule when there is no rule?

Exactly

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 11:46pm

Still trying to push the boundaries, just enjoy your racing and use skill to win.

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Robert

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 8:25am

hard to win in a development class if you are just relying on your phsyical sailing skill, how do you think moths 'took off' it wasn't through sailors relying on sailing skill, it was technical sailing theory and development, sailing is multi faceted, it is art and science, you need to be more than just a sailor pulling sheets and rudders, ..we'd all be in wooden boats with cotton sails, i'm sure dacron was deemed illegal.
the enjoyment of racing in a development class is trying new things that change the perspective of others, make the boat quicker, even in one designs, crews are looking for an advantage, some people are happy to get masts and hulls built to 'new' design theory, rudders etc, that is part of sailing for them, we can't all buy boats from RS and laser - or can we? tried that nice enough boats but a little bland....

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:23am

Mirror and Minisail, Enterprise.
Seems pointless to join a development class and then call someone for what to me appears to be a good idea, combine a halliard bag with a sail fill in, very elegant.

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Robert

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:54am

Originally posted by gbrspratt

It originates from Merlin's and putting a halyard bag in between the kicker/boom/mast.

I see. Well that's easy enough and common enough. Attempted rule bending by logic chopping is nothing new: "if I can dream up a way to call extra [sail area|hull length|corrector weights|something else] a [something different] it must be legal".

Of course that's nonsense. If it quacks like a duck it counts as a duck. Just because its a halyard bag doesn't mean it isn't also sail area. 49er/29er for examples. So if the class measures total sail area it counts towards sail area, and if it only permits n sails then its an extra sail.

In the past it has amazed me in the past how upset people have got when this obvious and fair interpretation of the way rules work is pointed out to them and their 'genius' concept is shot down. Perhaps the most high profile toy throwing exercise was the Krazy Kyote mast. Its on the net, and people involved still whinge about what was a completely fair and reasonable rule interpretation.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:23am

http://www.juanyachtdesign.com/YACHTS_&_YACHTING_Aug_1999.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.juanyachtdesign.com/YACHTS_&_YACHTING_Aug_1999.pdf

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:31am

The sum of the Krazy Kyote saga was that it was a long chord fixed mast that was designed to flex in rotation. So the designer hoped it would attract the rating credit for a very large fixed mast, but flex, at least upwind, sufficiently so that the actual drag of the mast would be nearer to that of a rotating mast, which of course gets a much smaller rating credit than a fixed one.

What happened was that the rule authorities said "OK, if its a mast that's inbetween a fixed mast and a rotating one, then we'll give you a rating credit that's inbetween too", at which point toys were thrown out of the pram.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:46am

It obviously worked, and was legal within the rule as it existed at the time. As has been said the CA can change the rule to take account of the innovation, either to outlaw it it or introduce a rating penalty to level the playing field but can't apply the new rule retrospectively. According to the Mark Chisnell article I linked above, the authorities re-rated the boat by falsifying the mast measurements remove the rating advantage the boat had under the rule. The owner, quite rightly, refused to sign the rating certificate as the numbers were incorrect.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 10:52am

Whole thing bordering on unsportsmanlike behaviour.

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Robert

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 11:00am

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It obviously worked, and was legal within the rule as it existed at the time.

It wasn't illegal, and wasn't prohibited from racing. It was merely given a rating which reflected the actual likely performance on the race course, which was something specifically required in the rule. How useful the innovation was is handily demonstrated by the fact that no other boat has been seen with a torsionally bending mast since!

A few years ago I thought the kicker infill would be a good idea for my IC, so I had the mainsail cut a little bit smaller so that the total sail area including the infill would still be within the rules. When I actually tried it I hated it, so for the next few years I had fractionally undersized sails!

There are people who think that rule writing should be a logic chopping competition between the rule writers and the designers. That opinion is not shared by rule writers, who are more concerned with trying to make the rules as clear and fair as possible. Consider competitors whose first language is not that of the rule: that explains why playing word games should have no part in a sailing/design competition.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 12:15pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It obviously worked, and was legal within the rule as it existed at the time.

If the way the 'revised' rating was arrived at was by falsifying the measurements to better suit what the handicappers thought the rating should be that is clearly wrong. Designing a boat that exploits a 'loophole' in the rule has been going on as long as rating/handicap rules and development classes have existed. Mark Chisnell, in his article, takes a very balanced view IMO.

FWIW I choose to sail a SMOD but because I happen to like the boat, not because it has strict rules WRT modifications. If we don't allow innovation we don't get progress in design. In my view it is totally within the 'spirit' of the rules and sailing would be much duller if we only had SMODs and strict one designs.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 12:37pm

People with ideas, perhaps they could Incorporate them into a new boat ?

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Robert

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 12:57pm

They did and called it Crazy K-Yote Two Tongue

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 1:13pm

Originally posted by 423zero

People with ideas, perhaps they could Incorporate them into a new boat ?

What difference does it make if it's a new boat or old?

The halyard bag has been looked at by certain rya members and usb thought to be legal in the current rules. The class disagree. But haven't changed any rules or pointed to any specific violations.

Similar (but reverse) with rudder fences. They say they are legal but wings/foils are illegal. When does this fence become a foil? As the rules are written they are surely illegal.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 1:30pm

I'm not and have never been an official measurer for any class, but I have been involved in contributing to class rules for Cherubs and ICs. So take that for what its worth.

If I were looking at a Merlin I would say that a fence becomes a foil when it has any lifting capability, and most especially if there is any control capability of changing the angle of incidence. So if its a small structure not extending beyond the likely boundary area of the flow round the blade, with a symmetrical section oriented as close as possible to the likely local water flow its a fence.

Looking at the Merlin rules I'd say for what little my opinion is worth that the dual purpose halyard bag/sail is a clear breach of G 1.2. If I were on a PC I wouldn't even bother to refer it to the CA. If the boat owner wished to appeal it then let him.

[later]
I've just looked at the rudder designs posted on the Merlin forum. I note
- structure which doesn't appear to extend beyond the boundary layer
- very low aspect ratio so very high drag if generating lift
- small total area
So unless there is some gear on the boat for changing the angle of incidence then I'd be quite happy with those - again for what little my opinion is worth.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 2:49pm

It would be easy to put a limit on projection of rudder fences and thus remove that area of 'interpretation', as it would be easy to prohibit that halyard bag or define it as a sail (which would outlaw it as it is more than one ply). But, in the case of a dev class*, rule changes can only be made with the approval of the membership as voted on at an AGM or EGM.

WRT the halyard bag, has this been discussed on the Merlin forum or their FB page?

* or One Design

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 3:04pm

Its very easy to add extra rules for every single possible contingency, at which point you end up with class rules like the Formula one technical regulations. You can find them here https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184, there's only 111 pages...

If I were on the Merlin committee, an eventuality rather more unlikely than Greenpeace deciding nuclear power is a good idea after all, I would suggest that the current rules are quite adequate about sails and fences, and that people who want to play word games can download apps onto their phones.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 3:08pm

True enough. In which case the CA should have the final say WRT to interpretation, if they say it ain't allowed (as they appear to) then it ain't allowed.

I've had a quick look at a number of pics on the Merlin FB page and none show anybody using such a device so it sounds like consensus is that either it is illegal or there is no performance benefit in using one.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 3:10pm

Originally posted by JimC

Its very easy to add extra rules for every single possible contingency, at which point you end up with class rules like the Formula one technical regulations. You can find them here https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184, there's only 111 pages...

Great,

bedtime reading, that'll get me off to sleep every night until next season......

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 3:10pm

To be fair if the Class Measurer says its ok then the Class Committee says it isnt then you have to go with the class committee (as they would trump the measurer). I am sure there is an official mechanism to get rule interpretations given and either approved or denied. Following on from that there should also be a mechanism to for rule changes to be suggested.....

I would rather hope they have all spoken to each other about said issue though, seems to indicate they may not have.....

As the OP knows the class have said the mod doesn't comply they are at risk of a protest from anyone feeling so minded.

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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 4:34pm

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It would be easy to put a limit on projection of rudder fences and thus remove that area of 'interpretation', as it would be easy to prohibit that halyard bag or define it as a sail (which would outlaw it as it is more than one ply). But, in the case of a dev class*, rule changes can only be made with the approval of the membership as voted on at an AGM or EGM.

WRT the halyard bag, has this been discussed on the Merlin forum or their FB page?

* or One Design

Apparently the RYA rules commitee have already ruled on this ( its a sail). And if I knew how to add the link, I would have done so

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 4:50pm

Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

WRT the halyard bag, has this been discussed on the Merlin forum or their FB page?

* or One Design

Apparently the RYA rules commitee have already ruled on this ( its a sail). And if I knew how to add the link, I would have done so

Which website is it on? I cannot see anything on the RYA site.

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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 5:27pm

Sorry cant work out how to post the link.

On the Rya site , search National class interpretations and there is Merlin link top right

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 5:44pm

March 2018 date of ruling.

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/CR%20interpretations/Merlin_Rocket_Class%20Rule_Interpretation_March_2018.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/CR%20interpretations/Merlin_Rocket_Class%20Rule_Interpretation_March_2018.pdf

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Robert

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 5:52pm

Originally posted by 423zero

March 2018 date of ruling.

Thank you Robert

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 6:43pm

I'd forgotten the Merlin is a National Class so I believe the class rules are held and administered by the RYA.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 7:45pm

It would have to be a flippin big halyard bag to make a difference? Merlins running out of class legal games to play?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:14pm

Perhaps it was shaped to funnel air up to mainsal ?

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Robert

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:27pm

Any funnelled air would be so disturbed as to make it worse than useless. I assume the real purpose was to minimise disturbed air below boom level, but not having seen a picture, I don't really have a clue!

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Nov 19 at 9:49pm

If you had a fairing around the mast and kicker I could, maybe, see that improving airflow but as soon as you fill it with lumpen, coiled up, halyards it'll be horribly un-aerodynamic.........

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 7:58am

Do halyard bags have to have a halyard in them to be class legal?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 10:02am

So the answer is that is isn't legal and should be removed then......

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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 10:33am

Thanks for digging that up. That's a pretty clear answer on that one!! I'd be interested on your thoughts about fences on rudders and if you think they currently fit within the rules?

Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 10:48am

With it easy to up spec a new Merlin over £30k, I would expect the concentration to be on racing.

But somehow I cant avoid being impressed by the continued drive to buy more bits!

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 11:22am

General discussion on Merlin site

https://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/index.asp?selection=New%20Forum&fid=1&tid=3195" rel="nofollow - https://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/index.asp?selection=New%20Forum&fid=1&tid=3195

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Robert

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 11:32am

Taken from latest rule book

C.8.2 Daggerboards, bilgeboards, double rudders, winged rudders and similar contrivances are prohibited

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Robert

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 1:28pm

Originally posted by 423zero

Taken from latest rule book

C.8.2 Daggerboards, bilgeboards, double rudders, winged rudders and similar contrivances are prohibited

is a fence not a similar contrivance? there's no mention of fences in the ERS. so a fence is a contrivance? as it primarily used to affect leeway and/or produce vertical lift?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 2:37pm

No, a fence has nothing to do with leeway or lift. Its purpose is to modify the boundary layer round the foil. The use on rudder blades is typically to attempt to reduce ventilation - sucking of air down from the surface - which causes the rudder foil to stall and the boat to lose control.

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 3:42pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by gbrspratt

It originates from Merlin's and putting a halyard bag in between the kicker/boom/mast.

Is this not also true with a fence/wing/foil?

Definitely looks like a duck....

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 3:47pm

Originally posted by JimC

No, a fence has nothing to do with leeway or lift. Its purpose is to modify the boundary layer round the foil. The use on rudder blades is typically to attempt to reduce ventilation - sucking of air down from the surface - which causes the rudder foil to stall and the boat to lose control.

Ok so if it doesn't have anything to do with leeway or it isn't creating lift; what if the rudder is angled so the fence is at an angle to the flow of water does it creat lift then?
so it must be one of these as it is a contrivance of somesort? Fences are not listed in the ERS so as a 'fence' it can be big as long as it is not producing lift (the national 12 rudder wing is not primarily about lift it is changing the flow of water off the stern - not lift?):

(d) FIN A fixed hull appendage primarily used to affect leeway or directional control.

(k) TRIM TAB When a rudder(s) is used, a movable hull appendage, attached at the aft, or fore edge of another hull appendage.
(l) WING A hull appendage attached to a keel, bilge keel, canting keel, fin or bulb, primarily used to affect leeway and/or lift. (m) FOIL A hull appendage attached to a centreboard, daggerboard, bilgeboard or rudder, primarily used to affect leeway and/or produce vertical lift.

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 4:22pm

Fence is not a performance enhancer, it is a fit and forget item, purely for maintaining steerage, much the same as a release cleat on rudder or a centre board that knocks back, plus a myriad of other boat damage limiting useful inventions.

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Robert

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 4:48pm

So this fence isn't producing lift? It isn't shaped to change the flow of water around the foil? Canting / lifting the rudder doesn't increase our decrease the angle the fence makes?
Having a fence doesn't enhance the performance of the foil in certain conditions, i.e. it stops ventilation, stopping the stalling of the higher aspect foil?
If I make this fence larger when does it become a non allowable wing?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 5:06pm

Can't see it clearly on phone, but it looks like it also as a reduced chord ?
If the manufacturer designed blade purely to reduce suction and you attempt to make it into a foil ! Speaks for itself.

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Robert

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 5:11pm

Originally posted by 423zero

Can't see it clearly on phone, but it looks like it also as a reduced chord ?
If the manufacturer designed blade purely to reduce suction and you attempt to make it into a foil ! Speaks for itself.

Not attempting to make it a foil.
If it reduces suction is that no creating lift?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 5:15pm

That's too say, if this fence is creating any lift around it then it is a wing it contrivance under the definitions of the ERS/rule?
IF NOT.
then how much wider/ bigger can it get before the lift it generates is a wing or contrivance?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 5:32pm

Originally posted by 423zero

Fence is not a performance enhancer, it is a fit and forget item, purely for maintaining steerage, much the same as a release cleat on rudder or a centre board that knocks back, plus a myriad of other boat damage limiting useful inventions.

Sorry, 432Zero, I disagree. If the purpose of the fence is reduce cavitation it is, by definition a performance enhancement by virtue of the fact that the boat is easier to steer / more stable at high speed.

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Nick
D-Zero 316

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 5:52pm

Originally posted by JimC

I'm not and have never been an official measurer for any class, but I have been involved in contributing to class rules for Cherubs and ICs. So take that for what its worth.

If I were looking at a Merlin I would say that a fence becomes a foil when it has any lifting capability, and most especially if there is any control capability of changing the angle of incidence. So if its a small structure not extending beyond the likely boundary area of the flow round the blade, with a symmetrical section oriented as close as possible to the likely local water flow its a fence.

[snip]

[later]
I've just looked at the rudder designs posted on the Merlin forum. I note
- structure which doesn't appear to extend beyond the boundary layer
- very low aspect ratio so very high drag if generating lift
- small total area
So unless there is some gear on the boat for changing the angle of incidence then I'd be quite happy with those - again for what little my opinion is worth.

In practical terms there will be a gap between a fence that is bigger than it needs be to do the job, and a foil that's too small and too low aspect ratio to do anything significant. The difference will be obvious. But in any case any control to accurately change the angle of incidence of the foil on the water would be a dead giveaway.

Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 6:14pm

Originally posted by Noah

If the purpose of the fence is reduce cavitation it is, by definition a performance enhancement by virtue of the fact that the boat is easier to steer / more stable at high speed.

Pedant alert (sorry) Embarrassed

Ventilation, not cavitation, cavitation doesn't happen at dinghy speeds (not even, I think, foiling Moth speeds).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 6:43pm

Fence is a performance enhancing device like,

Self bailers, they enable you to empty boat quicker than someone without.

Mast head float, stops you turtling, quicker recovery.

Duck under, stops you throttling yourself with mainsheet.

Hiking straps, allows you to lean further without falling in. etc etc etc

where do you draw the line ?

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Robert

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 6:48pm

Why do you need to draw a line? As you say they all improve performance? I don't really get your point. The point about the fence is how it fits in the rules?

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 7:54pm

Lost train of thoughts now LOL

Think it was in relation to adjustable wing and fence in relation to Merlin ruling.

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Robert

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 8:10pm

Put simply, the question still remains.... To me the fence is a contrivance?
So the rules state:
Daggerboards, bilgeboards, double rudders, winged rudders and similar contrivances are prohibited.

Is the fence a similar contrivance?

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 8:59pm

Obviously it's added to blade, so it's a contrivance. You can't buy a Merlin rudder with a fence.

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Robert

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 9:04pm

Originally posted by 423zero

Obviously it's added to blade, so it's a contrivance. You can't buy a Merlin rudder with a fence.

They come like that from one of the manufacturers if you want it.

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 9:10pm

Rockatross, don't think it's class legal, so it's a blade you can buy that will fit a Merlin stock.

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Robert

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 9:14pm

Surely it is whatever the class choose it to be? If they, as owners, decide to allow fences, or rather, to not disallow them, then they are obviously not "similar contrivences" or whatever the phrase was. Haven't they been using them for years?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 9:27pm

Originally posted by 423zero

Rockatross, don't think it's class legal, so it's a blade you can buy that will fit a Merlin stock.

Rockatross is legal and racing. These are Winder Merlin rudders if you really want to know .

Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Surely it is whatever the class choose it to be? If they, as owners, decide to allow fences, or rather, to not disallow them, then they are obviously not "similar contrivences" or whatever the phrase was. Haven't they been using them for years?

I think what's happened is it wasn't noticed that they may or may not be in breach of this rule. And now it's been brought to everyone's attention. But no-one is clear on why it is or isn't legal. Grandfathering the ones out there has been suggested. But not enough people can agree on an answer.

It's really interesting hearing non class sailors opinions

Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 9:42pm

I know one thing this is the type of dealing that winds iGRF up

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Robert

Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 10:30pm

Surely a fence is to improve foil efficiency by reducing ventilation and hence increasing the effective span, whereas wings generate vertical lift and energy recovery from the stern wave.

I can see why a class might want to outlaw winged rudders, since the cost can be disproportionate and may limit how and where a boat may be sailed, a very different problem to tinkering around with fences. But in the end it is for the Merlins to decide if this is a worthwhile avenue to pursue.

Bear in mind that they are a restricted class and not a development class, and they have done a pretty good job in managing evolution not revolution.

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Happily living in the past

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Nov 19 at 11:13pm

Originally posted by gbrspratt

I think what's happened is it wasn't noticed that they may or may not be in breach of this rule.

"Similar contrivances" is not the smartest bit of rule writing I've ever seen, but grief, you people are making a mountain out of a molehill, hell, not even as big as a molehill. A blade fence is an utterly different thing to a lifting foil. I am to say the least not biased towards the Merlin class, but I don't think the distinction presents the slightest problem.