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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Jan 18 at 9:17pm
Most of our new members are silver sailors, either learning or returning from a brief dalliance years before. Many of these people may only sail every now and again, but may join in with the club in many other ways. We talk about the demographic time bomb, but people get old all the time, and some will see sailing as a great way to stay healthy and join in with something new. It is racing that suffers from this, as our older racers tend to have either sailed right through life or have come back from many years of racing in the past.

Trouble is, there needs to be a balance between racing and other club activities, or a club starts to fade.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 18 at 10:16pm
Dougal,

As the only poster who used the term 'anti-RYA' in this thread, I want to make it clear that when I wrote:

'There is a small minority in the sailing world, who are a vocal minority here but drip enough BS to sound like a majority, who are just anti RYA.

I have kids who are loving their squad work.  I recognise some of the coach behaviours criticised earlier in this thread, but not from their RYA training.  I thought about commenting but life is too short.'

I was not referring to you or your article.  I have heard enough of what you do, outside of your journalism, to know that you're not.

I am however genuinely interested to understand what evidence lies behind the decline that you assert.

I can accept a decline since the 70s and 80s, and possibly into the 90s.

But I'm generally interested to understand the evidence - because you can't treat the disease without understanding the symptoms.

Originally posted by Dougaldog

As the author of the original article, I was about to come in with a comment about topic drift when on reflection it can be seen that actually, these issues are right at the heart of what is happening in some areas of the pastime/sport. What evolved as a volunteer managed activity, served by cottage industry suppliers, now faces a future that looks already to be far more commercially minded and yes, professionally aimed  at results (whatever 'results' might mean in various scenarios). Most of the better posters on here have pretty much hit the proud standing nails on the head at one point or another, which just highlights that there is no single cause, nor will there be a single answer.

Other posters, with little more than their own keyboard rhetoric as evidence (different for those who I've known on line for years) have taken me to task for being 'anti-RYA' which is a shame, for away from here I'm often working closely with them. Just a fortnight ago I spent a Saturday with them discussing Club Race Officer skills - a subject that is one that I am happy to be extra supportive of. Jim C is again spot on in his assessment of where to look for when there are screw ups and this is an area where I think help could be given. If you have to do 3 duties a year at your home club, that could be OOD, Rescue Boat, Race Officer or anything else under the umbrella of 'Chief cook and bottle washer'. You might have done an RO duty last year, but may not do  one this year - or next. Help for the RO - in terms of top down training - ought to be there to help these souls, rather than be aimed at someone who fancies a slot on the Committee Boat in Tokyo 2020. But try to engage on this - or on PYs, even with the intent of constructive dialogue can quickly result in a negative response. 
I hate to disappoint some of you but I very rarely 'chase' stories - most of them come to me in the first place. If people make contact with  details of what is happening, as a journalist, do you ignore it or somehow bring it into the public domain? This isn't Harry Potter, nor Beatrix Potter - these are people from within the sport, who knowing that I write as fairly as possible - contact me to tell me what has happened or what is being discussed. It's hardly whistle-blowing but in the fairly close knit world of suppliers and administrators, it can be very difficult to express a counter view.
There will now be a break before Part 3 - Ladders - for those who have been insightful I can but express thanks, I'm now looking at a number of different lines of research. Before that though is the Proctor Centenary, then Ladders...and then...... 'Staying at the top of the singles charts', what could be a multi part look at the small mid-range single handers. With World Sailing talking about a lightweight ladies boat (if you read the WS blurbs I'm not sure if the lightweight refers to the lady or the boat - punctuation might help) this could be a good topic! Hey Rupert, there might be a chance for the Minisail yet!!!!

Cheers all, back soon

Dougal/Isle of Wight

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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 18 at 10:48pm
Of course one thing we could all do is look at Sport England's Active People Survey.  Sadly it's now an Active Lives Survey with no individual sport data.  So the last year is 2016.  And the data there is interesting:

https://www.sportengland.org/media/11746/1x30_sport_16plus-factsheet_aps10.pdf

So year on year 14-15 to 15-16 saw a 23% fall in the number of once a week participants in sailing (by the way the way the survey works you have to do it 4 times in 4 weeks....).  That's a massive 13,500 participants.

Now look at Table 1.  In Sep - Oct 2005 there were 64000, down to 59100 for Sep-Oct 2014-15.  Then go to the third column for the period Apr 15 to Mar 16 (so half of that lying within the period in which we see the massive fall)  -the numbers for sailing were up by 400.

Now that tells me that something isn't quite right....

I'd be interested to hear what the statisticians out there have to say.

But in any case let's just look at what we find within the sailing definition:

'Windsurfing or Boardsailing, Jet ski-ing / aquabike / personal water craft, Sailing – dinghy racing (inc. multihull), sailing – dinghy cruising (inc. multihull), sailing – keelboat racing, sailing – keelboat cruising, sailing – yacht racing (inc. multihull), sailing – yacht cruising (inc. multihull), powerboat racing'

Hardly an indicator for dinghy sailing's decline is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 18 at 11:00pm
Actually Active Lives does have individual sport data:

https://www.sportengland.org/media/12458/active-lives-adult-may-16-17-report.pdf

Link to it out of slide 9.  Note that the measure is now twice in 28 days.  Sailing more than doubles to 126000.

Other sports increase, but I haven't yet found any that double.  Again - not sure what it tells us.


Edited by sargesail - 31 Jan 18 at 11:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 18 at 9:31am
I found an old survey from 2013 that showed things were on the up, thanks in part to an excellent summer, the weather playing its part as it does in water sports participation. Last year for me as a purveyor of kite equipment was excellent since it was quite windy, but nevertheless we have to accept what might be good for one sport isn't for the other, my hours in my boat were probably the lowest I've recorded since I've been messing about sitting down.

Then I had a google and found the latest summary of that same survey, it's here where I note racing in 2016 at least was up a tad even though the general trend is down.

It's a fact across all the sports I either have been involved in commercially or am still involved in as a hobby, they are down because they are either no longer the 'in' thing or have lost the critical mass required to continue to introduce enough new folk to cope with natural wastage.

I think small boat sail and racing is resilient in that it has critical mass and the fluctuations will be largely down to weather, and family trends. Even though I always feel throwing money at youf is wasted, there is sufficient volume to ensure returnees long into the future.

But I do caution that the trend away from civil obedience and reluctance to observe rules and regs that has been prevalent since the 60's does sway a lot of folk away from the regulation that is such a part of our world and I think a simplification of the rules is long overdue. I also feel that a degree of stability in all things handicap is desperately required as I've said over and over, it's not that important in the greater scheme of things but like selling things generally, removing sales objections is key to the success of any product being marketed and at the end of the day that's what we're trying to do, market a leisure product and sport.

Edited by iGRF - 01 Feb 18 at 9:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 18 at 10:11am
Handicaps probably only effect the merry go round of boat ownership, rather than total numbers, I'd have thought.

But if fixed numbers will help, then maybe once the PYAG have 10 years of data from direct results, they could work out what the average handicap of classes has been over that time, and clubs that want to can use that fixed figure. Boats with major changes effecting speed would have to stay as experimental numbers. Likely, the fixed number will be as accurate for most classes as a moving one, given the huge influence of the weather and ability on boat speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 18 at 10:34am
Well a conspiracy theorist could make the argument that the continued movement is there to generate boat sales churn.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 18 at 11:35am
They could, but I think weather, ability and even courses set that year are more likely culprits. That, and the errors in the previous system where handicaps barely moved, and the bandits classes were well know, still being corrected. Hopefully, this has nearly gone, now?

I was amazed last Sunday after jumping in our Topper to race, it being the only working boat in the fleet currently, that I was sailing off a handicap getting on for 100 higher than when I raced them 17 years ago. Admittedly it was harsh back then in anything barring survival conditions, but it did seem a little kind, now!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 18 at 12:35pm
Surely I can't be the only one who doesn't care what a boat's PY is when making a decision on what to sail in?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 18 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Well a conspiracy theorist could make the argument that the continued movement is there to generate boat sales churn.
If it did help promote sales and participation then it must be a good thing  Wink
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