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    Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by chris_wht

do people really find doing ~3 duties a year THAT much of a burden?
Yes, I only sail about 12-15 mornings a year - can never do a whole day of sailing and never more than two Sundays a month.  So then having to do 3 days (whole days) of duty is a massive proportion of the time I can afford to give to sailing.  
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 9:39pm
3 duties a year, plus training to know what you are doing, plus first aid top ups every couple of years, my club you have to pay for courses and top ups, doesn't bother me, but I know some people find it a real burden, time wise and financial.
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chris_wht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 9:20pm
do people really find doing ~3 duties a year THAT much of a burden?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by Cirrus


Very simple  indeed to administer.  If say the 'time poor' are already buying themselves out of  say 3 duties per year for maybe £ 100 - 'pay' those with extra time to spare £ 30 off next years club subscription per extra duty (and the club even gets to keep a bit !!)    Surely you record people turning up - or not - for duties already ?  

I have been a member of clubs where you could buy out, but this only works when you have surplus. To create a surplus you have to ask everyone to do more duties in the first place. Otherwise you end up with nice extra cash but no one to sit on the rescue boat. 

Then you have to get the prices right. Attractive enough that people would turn up, but low enough that people would sell. 

Then you need to work out whether to allow the buys or swaps before or after duties are roistered or and memberships paid. Either way, it needs to be administrated, probably by more volunteer time. I know at HISC quite a bit of time goes in to getting the best people in to the more challenging duty spots. Would be a headache if it then chopped and changed after. 

Or... you just let everyone pick duties in duty man, then swap, or just pay others to turn up on their behalf? Seems that achieves the same aim and sorts it self out without putting peoples noses out.
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by PeterG


1. Grafham Water
2. Hayling Island
3. Burghfield
4. Stokes Bay
5. Netley
6. Datchet Water
7. Leigh & Lowton
8. Warsash
9. Draycote Water
10. Staunton Harold
11. Northampton
12. West Lancs
13. Parkstone
14. Delph
15. Rutland

Would be interesting to see how those are affected by club size? Presumably larger clubs are more likely to get more higher ratings at events than smaller ones.

Peter Gray - who is none of the above!


I am slowly collecting data. Only started last November and will run through to end of October so there is allot of number crunching.

Nick Craig is there but I have only picked him up in two events so far, I am sure he has plans to do more. You have to do the events (and the big ones to come out top)

I collected allot of test data last year, enough that most of the top ten had done atleast a full 10 events. Nick Craig was up there. Andy (Taxi) Davis came top though (only just) and if you look at his year it was very well deserved with success in both the Solo and Merlin Rocket.

Event / Result 

Merlin Rocket Open @ Hollingworth Lake Sailing Club 1
Merlin Rocket @ Blithfield Sailing Club 1
Solo EOS @ Grafham Water Sailing Club 2
Merlin Rocket Open @ Parkstone Yacht Club 1
Merlin Rocket Inland Championships @ Burton Sailing Club 1
Merlin Rocket National Championships @ Pwllheli Sailing Club 2
Solo National Championships @ Royal Torbay Sailing Club 2
Salcombe Merlin Week 2
Merlin Rocket Open @ Rutland Sailing Club 1
Merlin Rocket Open @ Salcombe Yacht Club (Audrey Petit Memorial) 11
Solo Open @ Draycote Water Sailing Club  2
Draycote Dash 3



Club size, or "activity" is probably going to have an effect, but also requires ability from one or two of its members to. 

Allot of the early races I have picked up were the Championships based at Grafham and were quite Laser(y) so would expect the likes of Grafham, Stokes Bay, HISC to be up there. This isn't a surprise as they are some of the bigger more competitive clubs in the country. Once we get into Class Opens/Class Championships later in the year this may balance out a little.

Its going to be a slow burner there is allot of data to crunch alongside my full time job and parenting duties.

if anyone wants to keep track I have set up a facebook page https://www.facebook.com/sailnationuk like and follow. Would like to hear your opinions as I go
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 6:52pm
Thus far I only Have Helm and Crew, however I have the data for Clubs that the sailors have entered under too (where it has been supplied) Based on the sum of the top 3 results per club per event, the top 15 looks something like this

1. Grafham Water
2. Hayling Island
3. Burghfield
4. Stokes Bay
5. Netley
6. Datchet Water
7. Leigh & Lowton
8. Warsash
9. Draycote Water
10. Staunton Harold
11. Northampton
12. West Lancs
13. Parkstone
14. Delph
15. Rutland

The problem is the data and behaviour of the sailors.

The data is horrendously inaccurate and inconsistent, eg name spellings for example we have Pete Gray (of Scorpion fame) as Pete Gray, Peter Gray, Pete Grey, Peter Grey at different events, add to this where you have multiple people with the same name

Would be interesting to see how those are affected by club size? Presumably larger clubs are more likely to get more higher ratings at events than smaller ones.

Peter Gray - who is none of the above!
Peter
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by JohnJack

Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by JohnJack

...

The problem is, sailing isn't really a "club" sport. A club is really just a place to sail. Unlike other sports, which are possibly more team based where you would have First Team, Second Team and so on and so on sailing in crew boats tends to be because your are just good mates who sail together (for the most part).

I agree. I've been involved with a few different 'inter-club' things over the years, they often seem to breed resentment and apathy in the club that gets thrashed and people who don't make the team.
The arguments about the best way to score an event where some clubs could field 10 boats and others only 5, when each clubs uses their own munged PY scale, can go on a long time.

That's not really the issue. 
I have been playing with event data for the last two years to try and devise some sort of National League. The results so far are published here www.sailnation.co.uk.

Thus far I only Have Helm and Crew, however I have the data for Clubs that the sailors have entered under too (where it has been supplied) Based on the sum of the top 3 results per club per event, the top 15 looks something like this

1. Grafham Water
2. Hayling Island
3. Burghfield
4. Stokes Bay
5. Netley
6. Datchet Water
7. Leigh & Lowton
8. Warsash
9. Draycote Water
10. Staunton Harold
11. Northampton
12. West Lancs
13. Parkstone
14. Delph
15. Rutland

The problem is the data and behaviour of the sailors.

The data is horrendously inaccurate and inconsistent, eg name spellings for example we have Pete Gray (of Scorpion fame) as Pete Gray, Peter Gray, Pete Grey, Peter Grey at different events, add to this where you have multiple people with the same name Scorpion sailor Andy McKee and N12 sailor Andy McKee for example (think we have two Steve Grahams (the P&B sailmaker and the Solo sailor) too as well as spelling mistakes it gets a bit nightmarish.
Also we have results where a sailor has entered under two or three different clubs, happens allot when someone is also RNSA (Royal Navy Sailing Association). 4 is the record so far (for a single hander, someone had 4 clubs listed next to their name in the results).

We also have entries where the club is recorded as just initials as well, this could relate easily to a handful of different clubs

BSC for example
Bolton,Budworth,Burwain,Burghfield I could go on and on

LLSC is one that pops up a fair bit, there is a Leigh & Lowton up near Warrington and one down the the South West somewhere I think

Interesting effort.

Grafham ought to be at the top when at least 11 of your 31 events were held there of course.

I'd say the sanity check is that Nick Craig and Toby Lewis should probably be top (or bloody close) of your list for helm and crew respectively. Until then, you've got a lot more data to crunch, perhaps the other 98% or 99%.

I'm cool with the CHIPS scoring, but is every class of equal standard, even with the same number of entries? Hitting the top 10 in say the Moths or Merlins, against a load of Olympians, pros, jockeys and other assorted rockstars is gonna be harder than some other classes surely


Edited by fab100 - 30 Jan 18 at 6:41pm
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 5:57pm
Perhaps a part time job for a student ? Most Cities and Large towns have a University of some description, what is minimum wage ?
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 5:14pm
Well said!
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 18 at 4:14pm
A fair proportion of club members may be prepared to regularly do an extra duty or two for a discount off next years fees....  Many clubs already accomodate the 'time poor / cash rich' by offering them a form of 'buy-out' as well.   

Couple the two together and just maybe you get the best of both worlds .. those on a tight budget and with more time available get to sail/race when otherwise it might be tough for them to justify the cost... and those with a higher income but little time to spare already have some much needed flexibility.  They would effectively pay for the system in monetary terms.

Very simple  indeed to administer.  If say the 'time poor' are already buying themselves out of  say 3 duties per year for maybe £ 100 - 'pay' those with extra time to spare £ 30 off next years club subscription per extra duty (and the club even gets to keep a bit !!)    Surely you record people turning up - or not - for duties already ?  

Flexible fees and a flexible approach to duties' allow more people to get into sailing - and then might perhaps keep them there longer.
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