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turnturtle View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


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    Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 11:34am
Originally posted by JimC

What you are describing is a rich man's sport purely for the executive class who are so happily enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary working people.

no, I disagree.... as I stated on my previous post, it's about the comparative price of leisure.  Not some dichotomy between rich and poor that makes good internet prose.   

Personally I would pay more to take part in a dinghy race than I would for a cinema ticket.  A cinema ticket is what, 8 quid plus popcorn?  That's a value judgement I guess most here would make and agree on.

The local leisure centre runs spin classes - they're £4 a session for 45 minutes.  They're fully booked.

My snowdome 'member's discount' session is £26 - without being derogatory, I doubt the local clientele would be described as 'rich'.  Yet, it's popular enough to be sustainable and more snowdomes are springing up despite the enormous capital outlay and running costs they demand for their operators. 

I certainly wouldn't question a £25 entry fee for an open meeting - yet so many do.  Not to mention the comparative cost of a holiday camping at a nationals - it's peanuts compared to a 'proper holiday', yet somehow there's always some tight wad moaning about entry fees and the cost of the beer at a decent club venue.   

I haven't bought a dinghy thinking it wouldn't depreciate - yet that's the modus operandi for many dinghy sailors.  They expect their 'investment' to hold value simply by adding consumables like sails every other year.   Hence the price of new boats with the shrinking pool of those prepared to fund them creates a further divide between haves and have nots - not great right?  And certainly not great for after-market management.  

The once aspirational thought of owning a brand new boat is even further off the agenda for many until a relative pops their clogs or the PPI claim was better than expected.   The car industry dealt with this years ago - breaking down the new car ownership barrier.  A decent financing operation ought to be applicable for the dinghy market, yet I'm sadly reluctant to say it would be that successful in changing common mindsets.  After all what's not like about flogging your old sh*t to newbies ideally for more than you paid for it.  

Dinghy sailing will always have an element of elitism about it, and kind of 'so what' to a level given the Chatham Average out there....  but I don't believe that servicing it properly means that it will be purely a 'rich man's' game.  We just need to accept the true running costs in the future if the pool of mugginses drops off this metaphorical cliff edge... and yes, it'll still probably be cheaper than a Premier League season ticket, so I ain't whinging about cost.    


Edited by turnturtle - 29 Jan 18 at 11:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 11:46am
There are two problems as I see it:
1) How are people introduced to a sport in such a way they will come back?

I would wager that there is a greater conversion of non-sailors to racers by those who are introduced by friends and family. Do you or your club have access to a boat you could use to introduce a friend of family member to sailing or racing specifically?  Are there any incentives in place for you to make the effort to introduce new people? 

2) The cost and reward of maintaining an interest?

Costs are time and money and rewards are feelings of accomplishment, freedom / exhilaration and friendships. There are many things we can do on a local level to amplify the reward and structure the costs to make them more manageable. Finance or pay as you play options would certainly help graduates. But., ultimately the amount of time and money people have to spend is out of our sports control. My feeling is PY and the boats we sail fits in here as they can diminish the feelings of reward... but it makes up a small part of the equation. 

From my generation, I think I'm the only person I know racing / sailing dinghies who wasn't introduced by their parents. Was it always like that?


Edited by mozzy - 29 Jan 18 at 11:54am
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JimC

What you are describing is a rich man's sport purely for the executive class who are so happily enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary working people.

no, I disagree.... as I stated on my previous post, it's about the comparative price of leisure.  Not some dichotomy between rich and poor that makes good internet prose.   

Personally I would pay more to take part in a dinghy race than I would for a cinema ticket......


It seems to me most people are paying a lot more to sail than to go to the pics.
A typical season costs me say £300 for a new sail, £500 in depreciation, £100 insurance, £200 in club fees... need I go on? We are easily looking at £20 a race. And I think I'm near the cheap end of the market.

I'm sure pay'n'play could be made to work. I expect the economics would be a bit like the karting operation down the road. It works out about a pound a minute of actual driving. And that's for driving a machine which is a lot cheaper to buy than a laser and has cheaper consumables.
That's fun for about an hour a year.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

.....

From my generation, I think I'm the only person I know racing / sailing dinghies who wasn't introduced by their parents. Was it always like that?

I think I'm still racing against those parents?
It's not always like that. Schools used to do more, some people I know were introduced to sailing through Scouts, Sea Scouts, Cadets etc.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 1:27pm
I use commercial operation at Newquay, Mid Wales, a couple of times a year, they also hire Kayaks and SUP boards, works well, but mainly I think because of where it is.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JimC

What you are describing is a rich man's sport purely for the executive class who are so happily enriching themselves at the expense of ordinary working people.

no, I disagree.... as I stated on my previous post, it's about the comparative price of leisure.  Not some dichotomy between rich and poor that makes good internet prose.   

Personally I would pay more to take part in a dinghy race than I would for a cinema ticket......


It seems to me most people are paying a lot more to sail than to go to the pics.
A typical season costs me say £300 for a new sail, £500 in depreciation, £100 insurance, £200 in club fees... need I go on? We are easily looking at £20 a race. And I think I'm near the cheap end of the market.

I'm sure pay'n'play could be made to work. I expect the economics would be a bit like the karting operation down the road. It works out about a pound a minute of actual driving. And that's for driving a machine which is a lot cheaper to buy than a laser and has cheaper consumables.
That's fun for about an hour a year.


well put Eric.  I think you could beer can race an old laser on a cheaper budget, but you make a fair assessment of your costs.  I guess the question I've got is, if looking in to that crystal ball, will the Karting operation still be going in 20 years time?  I hope for those that enjoy it, it will be, but I don't know.... the dream of a VAT free helicopter one day may be enough of a draw.

However, I'd suggest there are a sailing club or two who won't be around in 20 years given their current reliance on age 65+ volunteers - some of whom can unfortunately, dare I say unfairly, come across as a little cliquey and out of touch to younger generations.      
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 2:32pm
Ah the 'aging volunteer cliff-edge' issue.

I have seen some of this: when there were existential issues for organisations as some older volunteers dropped out, then others became available who had previously been unwilling.

In the same way I note that  those of a certain (young) age and unwillingness are increasingly getting involved in organisational roles.
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johnr View Drop Down
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Posts: 34 		Post Options Post Options   Quote johnr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 2:36pm
There is an argument that we should have more clubs fail to end up with a lesser number with better subscriptions. I would wager that 50 years ago to travel 10 miles to the local club was about equivalent to 20-30 miles in todays car yet we still broadly have the same numbers of sailing clubs as 50 years ago looking at the commodores board for most clubs I have been in.

Sailing clubs also rely on the kindness of volunteers and therefore can run to really low overhead levels compared to most businesses hence the ability to continue to operate when a commercial venture would have long since given it up.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 3:24pm
I don't think that Dougal presents a particularly clear thesis, the article is more of a history and reminiscence of the good old days ...

Here is my pennyworth;-

For some time (even in the peak of windsurfing) there is annecdotal evidence that people younger than me tend to dip in and out of technical activity sports in a tick box manner ... been there done that ... mountain biking tick, snow boarding tick, windsurfing tick, kite surfing tick ... so the easiest way to tick the dinghy box is to do it as part af an activity centre type operation be it Dinghy Training in a sailing club or as part of a Sailing Centres operation or in a Holiday situation; dinghy racing simply takes too much commitment in time and money and involves joining clubs and buying boats.

The sport has over developed, a bit like the way Windsurfing did; 49'ers, Moths or Merlins are the sexy bit of the sport ... but really require years of pracice to progress too.  Even RS200's or RS400's, which are marketed to be readily accessible require good teamwork, so do not lend themselves to picking up a novice crew.

For practical reasons the sport of dinghy racing has moved toward single handers ... this does not present the virtuous circle of introducing people into the sport, nor an avenue for cadets to get experience in the front end of a grown up boat.  Even junior sailing is increasingly single hander focused.

I don't offer any answers, but if you could answer most of these points, perhaps you would have the route for Dinghy Racing to move forward.

Sadly I suspect that there is nothing any outside agency can do to push the sport in the direction that many of us would like, the demographics have changed in 40 years, as I see it the best solution is simply to go out dinghy racing for as long as we are able, and hope that others want to join in the fun.
Happily living in the past
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by sargesail

In the same way I note that  those of a certain (young) age and unwillingness are increasingly getting involved in organisational roles.

'twas ever thus. When you're young you take from the sport and let others to the boring organisation. When you're older you feel its time to put something back and do the ****. If it turns out that the next generation is so completely up their own posteriors and self obsessed than they won't stand up when its their turn then everything will fall apart and they'll get what they deserve for their kids... Most likely it won't though, because it was ever thus...


Edited by JimC - 29 Jan 18 at 4:11pm
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