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Riv View Drop Down
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Posts: 353 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing and electronic control
    Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 11:51am
Foiling Moths are wonderful high tech devices and when I look the pitch stability is provided by mechanical feedback systems with friction and lag which rely on a wand sensor. This reminds me of WW2 fighter planes.

When the pilot/Moth sailor comes ashore he might pick up a mobile phone with a great accelerometer and large processing power which is more than capable of controlling servos on the flying surfaces and could be linked to some sort of forward facing sensor which can check height and attitude.
We already have really good batteries and very fast servos. As fast jet fighters are designed to be only stable when flown by computer isn't it time that we went over to modern control systems for high speed craft.  Also think how much faster they will be able to go.

I expect the Moth rules don't allow this sort of electronics but it would be so much simpler to maintain and adjust than the current system. The pilot could adjust all the parameters on the water or take the system home and analyse its performance at home and make changes to the system or maybe write different code for it. It would also allow some really good innovation if the software was open source which might trickle down to other wind machines.
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chris_wht View Drop Down
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chris_wht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Riv

I expect the Moth rules don't allow this sort of electronics but it would be so much simpler to maintain and adjust than the current system. The pilot could adjust all the parameters on the water or take the system home and analyse its performance at home and make changes to the system or maybe write different code for it. It would also allow some really good innovation if the software was open source which might trickle down to other wind machines.


stored power for control isnt allowed

lengthy discussions have been had about this at work, the main issues we came up with were that - - - you actually need a fair old shove to operate the flap under load = weighty electric motor
- water & salt proofing
- a sheer mind boggling combo of 3d mapping (like your car has) for every combination of wind speed, wave height, wave period, boat speed, to effectively control adjustment in bias, flap response, gearing, flap angle...and ideally you would want to overide all of this on the fly if you found your system was overgeared, flying to high / too low, yadda yadda

having said all that, its not necessarily impossible, and im pretty sure hydroptere ran a similar system.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 2:29pm
Didn't Clive Everest try this on Moth a while back?
But I'm not sure why the controller designer should be expected to give away his work for free, any more than a sailmaker should hand out sails.
Tuning the gain shouldn't be any harder than tuning the current mechanical system to the prevailing conditions, should it?
Not sure that phones accelerometers are accurate enough.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by chris_wht

]stored power for control isnt allowed


Presumably that's just a moth thing, those AC 'gold medal cyclists' are working to store power for the hydraulics are they not?

Or is it just more sailing hypocrisy?
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Posts: 155 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ttc546 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 4:51pm
Whether it is a Moth, or some other class or a new class, it wouldnt surprise me to see electronic ride height control systems on a dinghy. Nothing wrong in that to help the development of these systems for the future. Just a different form of sailing for those that like that sort of thing.
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chris_wht View Drop Down
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chris_wht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by chris_wht

]stored power for control isnt allowed


Presumably that's just a moth thing, those AC 'gold medal cyclists' are working to store power for the hydraulics are they not?

Or is it just more sailing hypocrisy?

its a moth modification of rule 52:

52 MANUAL POWER A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew.


allows for the use of speedpucks and the like which run off batteries

if you were being really pedantic there could be grounds for saying a bungee cord used for control take offs, swinging the wand forward and back etc is effectively stored power hyprocasy

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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 8:11pm
indeed add a Spektrum transmitter and a few servos and you could lower the all up sailing weight by about 65 kilos
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 10:24pm
photodiodes like a fishes lateral line going up each side of the board to measure how much lift is required, or pressure sensors in the foils.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 1:04am
While you're at it, buy a whole bunch of drones, fit them with wind speed and direction meters and have them flying by remote control ahead of the boat. The information could be fed back to an on-shore computer which would work out the windshifts well before they influenced the boat, and that information could be sent to a HUD or a simple LED that flashed orange when the skipper could tack.

In fact, while you're getting that much input why not just radio tactical directions from someone in a RIB or sitting on a high hill?  That could well increase the speed around the course more than electronic height control.

The other way to get a Moth to go a lot faster could be to throw away the Moth and get a kitefoiler.


Edited by Chris 249 - 11 Aug 17 at 1:06am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 8:06am
Whilst I don't think doing it to an existing class, where the ethos is very much a person being in control of a mechanical object, is a great idea, I can't see why this technology shouldn't be used to make boats, kite boards or whatever go faster, if that is the game people want to play.
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