Sailing and electronic control
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12818
Printed Date: 04 Jul 25 at 8:38pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sailing and electronic control
Posted By: Riv
Subject: Sailing and electronic control
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 11:51am
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Foiling Moths are wonderful high tech devices and when I look the pitch stability is provided by mechanical feedback systems with friction and lag which rely on a wand sensor. This reminds me of WW2 fighter planes. When the pilot/Moth sailor comes ashore he might pick up a mobile phone with a great accelerometer and large processing power which is more than capable of controlling servos on the flying surfaces and could be linked to some sort of forward facing sensor which can check height and attitude. We already have really good batteries and very fast servos. As fast jet fighters are designed to be only stable when flown by computer isn't it time that we went over to modern control systems for high speed craft. Also think how much faster they will be able to go. I expect the Moth rules don't allow this sort of electronics but it would be so much simpler to maintain and adjust than the current system. The pilot could adjust all the parameters on the water or take the system home and analyse its performance at home and make changes to the system or maybe write different code for it. It would also allow some really good innovation if the software was open source which might trickle down to other wind machines.
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Replies:
Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 1:03pm
stored power for control isnt allowed lengthy discussions have been had about this at work, the main issues we came up with were that - - - you actually need a fair old shove to operate the flap under load = weighty electric motor - water & salt proofing - a sheer mind boggling combo of 3d mapping (like your car has) for every combination of wind speed, wave height, wave period, boat speed, to effectively control adjustment in bias, flap response, gearing, flap angle...and ideally you would want to overide all of this on the fly if you found your system was overgeared, flying to high / too low, yadda yadda having said all that, its not necessarily impossible, and im pretty sure hydroptere ran a similar system. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 2:29pm
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Didn't Clive Everest try this on Moth a while back?
But I'm not sure why the controller designer should be expected to give away his work for free, any more than a sailmaker should hand out sails. Tuning the gain shouldn't be any harder than tuning the current mechanical system to the prevailing conditions, should it? Not sure that phones accelerometers are accurate enough. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 4:19pm
Presumably that's just a moth thing, those AC 'gold medal cyclists' are working to store power for the hydraulics are they not? Or is it just more sailing hypocrisy? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 4:51pm
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Whether it is a Moth, or some other class or a new class, it wouldnt surprise me to see electronic ride height control systems on a dinghy. Nothing wrong in that to help the development of these systems for the future. Just a different form of sailing for those that like that sort of thing. ------------- |
Posted By: chris_wht
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 6:06pm
its a moth modification of rule 52: 52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power
provided by the crew. allows for the use of speedpucks and the like which run off batteries if you were being really pedantic there could be grounds for saying a bungee cord used for control take offs, swinging the wand forward and back etc is effectively stored power hyprocasy ------------- |
Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 8:11pm
| indeed add a Spektrum transmitter and a few servos and you could lower the all up sailing weight by about 65 kilos |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 10 Aug 17 at 10:24pm
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photodiodes like a fishes lateral line going up each side of the board to measure how much lift is required, or pressure sensors in the foils. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 1:04am
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While you're at it, buy a whole bunch of drones, fit them with wind speed and direction meters and have them flying by remote control ahead of the boat. The information could be fed back to an on-shore computer which would work out the windshifts well before they influenced the boat, and that information could be sent to a HUD or a simple LED that flashed orange when the skipper could tack. In fact, while you're getting that much input why not just radio tactical directions from someone in a RIB or sitting on a high hill? That could well increase the speed around the course more than electronic height control. The other way to get a Moth to go a lot faster could be to throw away the Moth and get a kitefoiler.
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 8:06am
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Whilst I don't think doing it to an existing class, where the ethos is very much a person being in control of a mechanical object, is a great idea, I can't see why this technology shouldn't be used to make boats, kite boards or whatever go faster, if that is the game people want to play. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 8:45am
You would have to do something about the lack of righting moment, though.
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Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 10:20am
i would last than a boat length upright anyway |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 11:39am
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Going back to my analogy about WW2 fighter planes, I think that was not really what I wanted to say. A better one might be the dinghy world being similar to carburetor based car engines. Carbs were/are lovely finely engineered pieces of equipment, and I remember my Dad taking his apart on the kitchen table to clean and adjust. However when injection systems came in they offered so many advantages in terms of relability and adjustability (for those who really want to) that carbs have now virtually disapeared from modern road vehicle. Electronic control has penetrated so far into all aspects of our society that I'm sure it will make an apperance in some sailing dinghys if some class rules were relaxed. This will mean disruption for some but in some classes where money if of less importance, but it may mean an unbeatable edge. With sample times in the mega hertz, response time would be far faster than anything available now. A simple introduction might be control for T foil rudders, it might be posible to have smaller surfaces used more effectively? |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Aug 17 at 12:11pm
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It's a fair point, and my post wasn't entirely taking the piddle. Exactly how far we want to go with electronics, drones, computers etc has an infinitely different number of answers and infinite chances for tension. It does seem odd, for example, that some offshore sailors are happy to have an engine going 24/7 to move a keel but would object to those of us on other boats sending a drone down the course to look at the wind around the next headland. We probably do, though, always want to be aware of the issue of technological overshoot and its effect on the wider sport and the perception among potential new sailors. Perhaps in the end sailing will end up like some other sports such as surfing or cycling (and perhaps snowboarding and skiing), and each discipline will ignore the other disciplines to a large extent. We already do that with windsurfing and kiting, one supposes. Maybe foiling will become as separate a sport as windsurfing and will attract those looking for high tech, whereas "seahugging" will remain a sport powered by nature. PS - OK, let's ignore solar-powered electronics. :-)
------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Aug 17 at 7:33am
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Conceptually, using electronics to control foils is not hugely different from using an autopilot to steer. These things have their place in certain areas of sailing. I suspect we could add a lot of complication and find the wand system on a Moth is just as good? Much as some cruising sailors still use vane systems? |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 14 Aug 17 at 2:12pm
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The problem with mechanical systems is that there is a limit to speed of the response time due simply to the mass of the parts and friction in all its forms. If boats are to go much faster mechanical systems will not be able to cope and new electronic systems will have to be developed. Electronics also allow for a system to learn which mecanical systems cannot do well
Complexity is a relative perception. Cars have amazingly effective ECUs which hardly ever go wrong and so can be in black box terms seen as simple. The complexity is hidden from us (well most of us anyway). Similar black box thinking could be done on boats with only the inputs and outputs being within the normal control of the user |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Aug 17 at 10:13pm
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Plug and play? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 16 Aug 17 at 9:04pm
| Eventually yes....... |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 17 Aug 17 at 10:08am
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Why not go the whole hog, remove the moveable ballast (ie helm) and replace with ecu plus appropriately placed videocams and servos?
That way the (fat) controllers can remain on the shore and if they require the genuine experience, one duty of the race officers would be to hose competitors down at frequent intervals. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 17 Aug 17 at 6:14pm
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I probably didn't make my point clear. I was only proposing this sort of thing for boats that are already so fast that their control systems are close to the edge of what is practical in a mechanical analogue system. I would not want this sort of system for ordinary slow sailing. Somewhere there will be a point where there is a change from being Sailors to being Pilots. At that point new systems similar to planes will need o be developed
Though looking at some of the foiling trimaran model yachts that are around I can see the attraction of Time Lord's proposal.  |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 17 Aug 17 at 6:20pm
| Some of the boats converted for disabled sailors already have this technology. |