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Change the PY System?
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Change the PY System?
    Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:42pm
So if you only have one or two of a given class how does it not calculate a personal handicap? Presumably that would result in a low confidence factor, and so the club couldn't adopt it?

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but it surely doesn't matter if there are only one or two boats of a class at a club, provided you use the nationally based PY and a set of nationally based rules for local adjustment (based on inland/sea, small/large etc), which will have been worked out from the results of a large number of that class over a range of conditions.

It also highlights the difficulties, and dangers, of trying to do local PY adjustments without a set of nationally derived adjustment rules to folllow - otherwise the adjustments are likely to be highly subjective, and to end up becoming personal handicaps reflecting the abilities of the local helms where the number in a class locally is small.
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:49pm
A2Z,

py adjusted when reached cf 0.3 (you could do variations of this with % of handicap as cf goes up) we did have classes max out cf.

3 races won back to back by class meant early adjustment but kept under review and decided by committee if it should revert back.  perhaps i would change it to % change if doing it again and no committee review, as people can be lobbied by interested parties.

we only had one class that was on its own and it did reach high enough cf within our rules, it didnt stop them winning by any stretch.  we now have a few of those boats sailing.

my experience of adjusting locally never led me to believe we were penalising one boat or another, never stopped the good sailors from winning, and brought the back of the fleet up to make it feel like they achieved and the middle fleet had great racing with positions swapping. 

we introduced more all in racing to get extra data, a specific personal handicap series for some fun (the best guys still won).

it was the mid fleet sailors most upset actually due to delusions of grandeur from what i could tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:50pm
But there are no nationally based rules, so the local adjustment can't be fairly done.
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by jeffers


Now if they PYAG/RYA were prepared to publish more of the data then and an idea of where the data has come from (predominantly sea, predominantly inland) that may help explain and may encourage more club to tweak.

A good example is the Phantom. Inland the current PY is about right IMO. However in waves it must be almost impossible to achieve that PY.



You want it the other way around though where you can pull a class up and see where it is being sailed (and and idea of volume of results from each location or type of location).

for example - D-Zero - Hunts SC xxx races, Netley SC xxx races 

or

D-Zero - Inland xxx races, Sea/Estuary xxx races

it would be worth you asking them if they can add that function.
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by A2Z

But there are no nationally based rules, so the local adjustment can't be fairly done.

nope no rules set down from the top, i have previously suggested they do that directly as it would assist all the clubs in adjusting. but what works for one may not work for another.

your local rule can be your local rule, py data is taking in raw time format so what ever you do the overall data is not affected.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by NickM

"All true which is why the PN should reflect the boat's performance and not that of the crew. Whether you make that the average of all boats or the performance of the top 20% (which would be closer to the boats true potential) doesn't really matter IMHO, as long as the same criteria are used for all classes."

Agreed, but the point I was trying to make Sam is that the variables in everyday sailing are much more significant than getting hung up over a 10 point PY difference between classes.

Yup, absolutely no disagreement from me there. 
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by jeffers


Now if they PYAG/RYA were prepared to publish more of the data then and an idea of where the data has come from (predominantly sea, predominantly inland) that may help explain and may encourage more club to tweak.

A good example is the Phantom. Inland the current PY is about right IMO. However in waves it must be almost impossible to achieve that PY.



You want it the other way around though where you can pull a class up and see where it is being sailed (and and idea of volume of results from each location or type of location).

for example - D-Zero - Hunts SC xxx races, Netley SC xxx races 

or

D-Zero - Inland xxx races, Sea/Estuary xxx races

it would be worth you asking them if they can add that function.

You can almost do that as the 'by boat' search shows each club's adjusted PN and the number of boats at the club but not the number of races returned for that boat.
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Posts: 135 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Oli

check here http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-clubs.php


You want it the other way around though where you can pull a class up and see where it is being sailed (and and idea of volume of results from each location or type of location).

for example - D-Zero - Hunts SC xxx races, Netley SC xxx races 

or

D-Zero - Inland xxx races, Sea/Estuary xxx races

it would be worth you asking them if they can add that function.

It's already on that page: just select 'CLASSES' and enter the class you want to see.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 3:38pm

Cirrus, instead of being all mysterious, why not just make your point and rest of Forum can tell you why it won't work.,...

Sorry I'm finding your own point beyond me now !  It must be catching.   The point I'm making is that the GL numbers are a derivative of the PN system.  'They' are doing more or less what the RYA suggests all the time - modifying 'raw' numbers in the light of their direct experience and recorded results.  OK their approach also emphasises the importance of  'front of class' performance as well etc and this might rile a few as it does not follow to the letter what is written on the tablets of stone .... (and so few round the clubs ever dare use !)

Nothing mysterious to the increasingly large numbers of entrants who race under the system and it does produce great racing and events.  Now I'm sure many here will have raced at the SJ winter series and/or at  the growing number of other events using these revisionist numbers.  Ultimately nobody forces anyone to race under 'raw' PN or these adjusted GL numbers.   You could do either or both.... most will still do both but GL numbers use is spreading for a reason.   

Just perhaps the RYA could learn a bit from seeing how others do adjust the numbers and sample structure.   A bit more openness to alternatives that possibly does look beyond an apparent  'not invented here'  stance could help. 

And that's me done - next stop a sailing week that switched to using GL numbers about 3 years ago and it was very well received btw ..... and if they had not I'd still race in it !   




Edited by Cirrus - 27 Jul 17 at 3:43pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Just perhaps the RYA could learn a bit from seeing how others do adjust the numbers and sample structure.   A bit more openness to alternatives that possibly does look beyond an apparent  'not invented here'  stance could help.  



Do the rya actually take that stance or is this more wild supposision based on the blue blazer and chino stereotype?  

I understood there was a fair amount of discussion and liaison between the PYAG and GL teams??


Edited by turnturtle - 27 Jul 17 at 4:01pm
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