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Change the PY System?
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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Perhaps a solution would be to publish correction/adjustment factors for different types of boat and different sailing environments. That would take the onus away from the club PY committees. Probably not as accurate as true local adjustments but it would be better than just using the standard PN.

Example :-

A. Small lake or river (say up to 70 acres)
B. Large lake (over 70 acres)
C. Open sea or large estuary

1. Slow boat (Ent, GP, Solo, Laser etc.)
2. Fast Boat (Merlin, 505, Blaze, Phantom)
3. Assy boat
4. Catamaran

Slow boats would get a lower number on venue A and a higher number on C, Cats vice versa etc. 

Or even a sliding scale with venue B using the PN, A adding to fast boats and subtracting from slow boats and C adding to slow boats and subtracting from fast boats. 1000 remains fixed and numbers above and below get adjusted to a simple formula?

It is a grat idea Sam but the data just isn't there to reliably support splitting it down like that (that was the reason given last time someone from the RYA commented).
Paul
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NickM View Drop Down
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Posts: 328 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 11:16am
"and for anyone that disagrees and suggests that their boat needs an improved PY, get them to loan their boat to the local hotshot/sailmaker for a couple of club races and see how the need to change the PY suddenly is no longer needed."

Yup, know that feeling. The guy who bought my "old" boat is winning Open meetings in it using the same gear...

As JimC has said on here many times you need to remember that the skill range among dinghy racers is huge - e.g. up to 10% in our Club racing which equates to 100 PY points in a 50 minute race. And if two sailors of equal skill race together in light airs and one gets stuck in a patch of no wind the result could easily equate to 50 PY points.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Perhaps a solution would be to publish correction/adjustment factors for different types of boat and different sailing environments. That would take the onus away from the club PY committees. Probably not as accurate as true local adjustments but it would be better than just using the standard PN.

Example :-

A. Small lake or river (say up to 70 acres)
B. Large lake (over 70 acres)
C. Open sea or large estuary

1. Slow boat (Ent, GP, Solo, Laser etc.)
2. Fast Boat (Merlin, 505, Blaze, Phantom)
3. Assy boat
4. Catamaran

Slow boats would get a lower number on venue A and a higher number on C, Cats vice versa etc. 

Or even a sliding scale with venue B using the PN, A adding to fast boats and subtracting from slow boats and C adding to slow boats and subtracting from fast boats. 1000 remains fixed and numbers above and below get adjusted to a simple formula?

It is a grat idea Sam but the data just isn't there to reliably support splitting it down like that (that was the reason given last time someone from the RYA commented).

If the data is there to allow clubs to make local adjustments (race analysis page at RYAonline) surely that could be used for this purpose? They know which club the returns come from so can easily deduce the type of venue. I would see it as mainly for those clubs who's local PY committee chooses not to go to the time and trouble of making local adjustments. It wouldn't be as accurate as local PNs but would be better than just using the base number.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Jul 17 at 12:08pm
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by NickM

"and for anyone that disagrees and suggests that their boat needs an improved PY, get them to loan their boat to the local hotshot/sailmaker for a couple of club races and see how the need to change the PY suddenly is no longer needed."

Yup, know that feeling. The guy who bought my "old" boat is winning Open meetings in it using the same gear...

As JimC has said on here many times you need to remember that the skill range among dinghy racers is huge - e.g. up to 10% in our Club racing which equates to 100 PY points in a 50 minute race. And if two sailors of equal skill race together in light airs and one gets stuck in a patch of no wind the result could easily equate to 50 PY points.

All true which is why the PN should reflect the boat's performance and not that of the crew. Whether you make that the average of all boats or the performance of the top 20% (which would be closer to the boats true potential) doesn't really matter IMHO, as long as the same criteria are used for all classes.



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Jul 17 at 12:13pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Perhaps a solution would be to publish correction/adjustment factors for different types of boat and different sailing environments. That would take the onus away from the club PY committees. Probably not as accurate as true local adjustments but it would be better than just using the standard PN.

Example :-

A. Small lake or river (say up to 70 acres)
B. Large lake (over 70 acres)
C. Open sea or large estuary

1. Slow boat (Ent, GP, Solo, Laser etc.)
2. Fast Boat (Merlin, 505, Blaze, Phantom)
3. Assy boat
4. Catamaran

Slow boats would get a lower number on venue A and a higher number on C, Cats vice versa etc. 

Or even a sliding scale with venue B using the PN, A adding to fast boats and subtracting from slow boats and C adding to slow boats and subtracting from fast boats. 1000 remains fixed and numbers above and below get adjusted to a simple formula?

It is a grat idea Sam but the data just isn't there to reliably support splitting it down like that (that was the reason given last time someone from the RYA commented).

If the data is there to allow clubs to make local adjustments (race analysis page at RYAonline) surely that could be used for this purpose? They know which club the returns come from so can easily deduce the type of venue. I would see it as mainly for those clubs who's local PY committee chooses not to go to the time and trouble of making local adjustments. It wouldn't be as accurate as local PNs but would be better than just using the base number.

there is enough data to support a very local adjustment and a lot of it is likely to have a low confidence index (certainly all the numbers I have seen spat out have a low confidence index). If the RYA published these numbers then they would be even more damned than they currently are!

Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Personally since the electronic method for submitting returns came in and you can easily upload your race series data I think the PY system has improved a lot. Certainly numbers that were long overdue some movement have done so. Others have moved in unexpected directions.

Now if they PYAG/RYA were prepared to publish more of the data then and an idea of where the data has come from (predominantly sea, predominantly inland) that may help explain and may encourage more club to tweak.

A good example is the Phantom. Inland the current PY is about right IMO. However in waves it must be almost impossible to achieve that PY.
Paul
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by A2Z

As I related in an earlier post, local adjustment is a very big effort (small numbers make avoiding personal handicapping hard to avoid) and thankless. At the very least, the RYA should provide best practice guidance on how to do it.

As I understand it the PYS Online website does this already. Gives a suggested number and a confidence factor based on your data so a lot of the legwork is already done. The sailing committee just need to work out how and if to apply it.


it does and all you need as a club is to agree a set of rules of when to implement a change, quite simple actually.  one rule for all based off the same system, no one should complain of manipulation that way. 

the other thing to do is as many all in races as possible if your fleets separated usually by py bands or od racing.  we created a club champions series once per month that normal race results could also be taken out.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Now if they PYAG/RYA were prepared to publish more of the data then and an idea of where the data has come from (predominantly sea, predominantly inland) that may help explain and may encourage more club to tweak.

A good example is the Phantom. Inland the current PY is about right IMO. However in waves it must be almost impossible to achieve that PY.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by jeffers


Now if they PYAG/RYA were prepared to publish more of the data then and an idea of where the data has come from (predominantly sea, predominantly inland) that may help explain and may encourage more club to tweak.

A good example is the Phantom. Inland the current PY is about right IMO. However in waves it must be almost impossible to achieve that PY.



You want it the other way around though where you can pull a class up and see where it is being sailed (and and idea of volume of results from each location or type of location).

for example - D-Zero - Hunts SC xxx races, Netley SC xxx races 

or

D-Zero - Inland xxx races, Sea/Estuary xxx races
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Posts: 328 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 12:58pm
"All true which is why the PN should reflect the boat's performance and not that of the crew. Whether you make that the average of all boats or the performance of the top 20% (which would be closer to the boats true potential) doesn't really matter IMHO, as long as the same criteria are used for all classes."

Agreed, but the point I was trying to make Sam is that the variables in everyday sailing are much more significant than getting hung up over a 10 point PY difference between classes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Oli


Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by A2Z

As I related in an earlier post, local adjustment is a very big effort (small numbers make avoiding personal handicapping hard to avoid) and thankless. At the very least, the RYA should provide best practice guidance on how to do it.

As I understand it the PYS Online website does this already. Gives a suggested number and a confidence factor based on your data so a lot of the legwork is already done. The sailing committee just need to work out how and if to apply it.

it does and all you need as a club is to agree a set of rules of when to implement a change, quite simple actually.  one rule for all based off the same system, no one should complain of manipulation that way. 
the other thing to do is as many all in races as possible if your fleets separated usually by py bands or od racing.  we created a club champions series once per month that normal race results could also be taken out.

So if you only have one or two of a given class how does it not calculate a personal handicap? Presumably that would result in a low confidence factor, and so the club couldn't adopt it?
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