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Change the PY System?
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    Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 6:56pm
As I related in an earlier post, local adjustment is a very big effort (small numbers make avoiding personal handicapping hard to avoid) and thankless. At the very least, the RYA should provide best practice guidance on how to do it.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by A2Z

As I related in an earlier post, local adjustment is a very big effort (small numbers make avoiding personal handicapping hard to avoid) and thankless. At the very least, the RYA should provide best practice guidance on how to do it.

I think most people would concede this and understand the very real difficulties this may have socially.  Where I think more refinement could be done, indeed is probably already underway, is loose groupings of pooled results - be that water size and type; types of courses sailed and finally whether the race itself was done in discreet groupings or PY bands vs an all in together job of Teras and RS800s
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 11:22pm
So Cirrus' point is circular: simply use the system as intended and you don't need to change the system!

Oh dear - jumping to conclusions without getting the key underlying point being made possibly ...  If the GL modifications are gaining in use and popularity is there not something in what they 'do' that the 'raw' PN system 'management' (or is that really the 'curating' team ;-) could learn ?  The comment was actually made to tease out the realisation that 'local adjustment' as encouraged is only a tad away from endorsing more underlying modifications - a la GL numbers.

They are not really rival approches  - hopefully more and more will see that as time goes on.  The GL team are doing all (and yes - a bit more still) that the RYA encourages.  You may not recognise it as such, or perhaps like the revised numbers produced, but they are in most ways doing exactly what  is being suggested. 

Have a look at the numbers of both approaches and see what you think - many are the same but others are not.   But it does seem to work rather well in practice ....



Edited by Cirrus - 26 Jul 17 at 11:23pm
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 7:40am
Originally posted by A2Z

As I related in an earlier post, local adjustment is a very big effort (small numbers make avoiding personal handicapping hard to avoid) and thankless. At the very least, the RYA should provide best practice guidance on how to do it.

As I understand it the PYS Online website does this already. Gives a suggested number and a confidence factor based on your data so a lot of the legwork is already done. The sailing committee just need to work out how and if to apply it.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Cirrus

So Cirrus' point is circular: simply use the system as intended and you don't need to change the system!

Oh dear - jumping to conclusions without getting the key underlying point being made possibly ...  If the GL modifications are gaining in use and popularity is there not something in what they 'do' that the 'raw' PN system 'management' (or is that really the 'curating' team ;-) could learn ?  The comment was actually made to tease out the realisation that 'local adjustment' as encouraged is only a tad away from endorsing more underlying modifications - a la GL numbers.

They are not really rival approches  - hopefully more and more will see that as time goes on.  The GL team are doing all (and yes - a bit more still) that the RYA encourages.  You may not recognise it as such, or perhaps like the revised numbers produced, but they are in most ways doing exactly what  is being suggested. 

Have a look at the numbers of both approaches and see what you think - many are the same but others are not.   But it does seem to work rather well in practice ...



I'm wouldn't say I jumped to conclusions (well of course I wouldn't)....rather that your teasing out must have been too subtle for me.

I neither like nor dislike either set of numbers.  I feel that there are some anomalies in both sets.  But I don't 'care' about those anomalies because it's just handicap racing, and, frankly other factors make a much bigger difference than a few PY points.

I'm not quite sure that a follow what you are suggesting is the distinction between GLs numbers adjusted off a PY base which are applied not locally but across events....and locally adjusted PY numbers at a club or clubs

As far as I'm concerned they both work 'rather well', in that they enable 1st, 2nd, 3rd place to be identified among disparate boats, with sufficient 'fairness' that it is well within the 'fairness' tolerance of the other conditions in handicap racing (tide with different effects on fast and slow, tide turning on different parts of the course for fast and slow, runs v reaches (una and assym), shifts at different times and in different places).

Yes there are plenty of options to do things differently whether that be local adjustment (HISC numbers or PY locals), comparing boats in bands rather than across the whole thing, taking a steer from dimensions.....but essentially PY is good enough as a start point and meets the common denominator needs of the whole dinghy community.

That's my review done!
 
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 8:21am
Any adjustment to the RYA numbers seem to create grumbling from the middle of the fleet. It also ties up any clubs PY commitee for hours and stops them walking around the dinghy park as sailors try to put their particular point forward. My suggestion is to use the Rya unadjusted numbers and go sailing. The top guys will still win, we can spend more time sailing and then we can all sit in the bar afterwards with a single non club group to blame!
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Posts: 135 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Eisvogel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 9:34am
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

Any adjustment to the RYA numbers seem to create grumbling from the middle of the fleet. It also ties up any clubs PY commitee for hours and stops them walking around the dinghy park as sailors try to put their particular point forward. My suggestion is to use the Rya unadjusted numbers and go sailing. The top guys will still win, we can spend more time sailing and then we can all sit in the bar afterwards with a single non club group to blame!

A very pragmatic solution! I tend to agree, as despite the gut feeling that it should be possible to do it better, a perfect system is impossible. And you can indeed waste an awful lot of time fiddling with numbers that don't make much difference. Then you hit a mark, and the 360 takes more time than your adjusted PY score would have given you anyway.
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 9:44am
and for anyone that disagrees and suggests that their boat needs an improved PY, get them to loan their boat to the local hotshot/sailmaker for a couple of club races and see how the need to change the PY suddenly is no longer needed
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 10:02am
Cirrus, instead of being all mysterious, why not just make your point and rest of Forum can tell you why it won't work.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 17 at 10:10am
Perhaps a solution would be to publish correction/adjustment factors for different types of boat and different sailing environments. That would take the onus away from the club PY committees. Probably not as accurate as true local adjustments but it would be better than just using the standard PN.

Example :-

A. Small lake or river (say up to 70 acres)
B. Large lake (over 70 acres)
C. Open sea or large estuary

1. Slow boat (Ent, GP, Solo, Laser etc.)
2. Fast Boat (Merlin, 505, Blaze, Phantom)
3. Assy boat
4. Catamaran

Slow boats would get a lower number on venue A and a higher number on C, Cats vice versa etc. 

Or even a sliding scale with venue B using the PN, A adding to fast boats and subtracting from slow boats and C adding to slow boats and subtracting from fast boats. 1000 remains fixed and numbers above and below get adjusted to a simple formula?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Jul 17 at 10:15am
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