New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Change the PY System?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Change the PY System?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 15>
Poll Question: Would you like to see the Laser Fixed & Centred.
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
6 [16.22%]
31 [83.78%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Do Different View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Jan 12
Location: North
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Change the PY System?
    Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 11:24am
"Personally I don't worry about the PY results, which suits a lot of people, but  I do see the argument that if you expect someone to shell out ten grand on a boat to race, some of them will want to take it seriously."

Well yes, take it seriously by all means. Keep it real though and understand the game you're getting into. You have ambitions to compete at a good level and bought an expensive boat, surely given the preceding you have enough nous to have a realistic appreciation of the limitations of any system that compares a range of boats over a range of conditions.

As regards changing the system, there's to ways to go at it, adopt the victim mentality or take some ownership.

My view is with all those Clubs sending in data and people crunching numbers the smart thing would be to use it as a base to work from.

A couple of obvious and I would have thought widely accepted tweaks spring to mind.

In tidal conditions, knock back the faster boats and give the slow a bit more.

Small lakes / rivers, the reverse give the faster boats a little more and knock the slow.

If you really want to get picky you could give trapeze boats a bit on sub wiring days.

I think constantly feeling hard done by is very corrosive, both personally and collectively, sending out  very negative vibes which do nothing but harm to the sport.

Either accept it for what it is or own it and make it what you want.

 
Back to Top
Do Different View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Jan 12
Location: North
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 11:27am
Edit, now noticed a couple of spelling typos, heh ho.

BTW. I'm not a fan of wasting capital investments "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 11:53am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

It would all come out in the wash if both fleets sailed the same course but, even at my inland club, they sometimes give the Assys a W/L course while everybody else sails round the cans.

I've been thinking about the maths and I'm not sure.

My take on the two fleet thing is that, assuming consecutive starts say 5 mins apart, the results would be more or less the same as a single fleet start (assuming the same course). The returns (presumably, I haven't ever done them) include class of boat, elapsed time and laps sailed for each race. Given that in a rising wind the slow boats gain and in a dying wind the fast ones do but this is, to some extent, mitigated by average lap scoring the 5 minute disparity is pretty much irrelevant.

It would be really interesting to be able to prcoess the national data for past years in various ways.

It would indeed :) 
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
Oli View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 23 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Do Different


As regards changing the system, there's to ways to go at it, adopt the victim mentality or take some ownership.

My view is with all those Clubs sending in data and people crunching numbers the smart thing would be to use it as a base to work from.

A couple of obvious and I would have thought widely accepted tweaks spring to mind.

In tidal conditions, knock back the faster boats and give the slow a bit more.

Small lakes / rivers, the reverse give the faster boats a little more and knock the slow.

If you really want to get picky you could give trapeze boats a bit on sub wiring days.

I think constantly feeling hard done by is very corrosive, both personally and collectively, sending out  very negative vibes which do nothing but harm to the sport.

Either accept it for what it is or own it and make it what you want.

 

 
AT LAST! Someone with a positive mental attitude! really don't wish to go over old ground, my views on this subject have been given plenty of times.

it is all about owning it and getting others to take that approach, we would all be better off if sailors weren't mostly a moaning bunch of curmudgeons who claim to not care about handicap racing, except when it affects their results.

I have found sailors are quite commonly stuck up their own backsides far enough they will believe their own crap. If they were to put as much effort into using the system as instructed they would find it works, mostly.
T-SHIRTS
PRINTS
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 1:49pm
I guess I, like many, have had moments of frustration with the PY system, Spice handicap anybody ;) but generally I agree, it could be improved but generally the better sailor wins more than the mediocre one.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
furtive View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 30 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 188 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I guess I, like many, have had moments of frustration with the PY system, Spice handicap anybody ;) but generally I agree, it could be improved but generally the better sailor wins more than the mediocre one.

And isn't this the main point here? Trying to factor in crew skill factor for individuals is a completely separate discussion (personally I don't want to "win" a race by sailing only a little bit less badly than my personal rating suggests I should do).

Obviously the current system relies on the skill levels of sailors as it is based on real races, but at least this effect is averaged out as much as it can be.

I'm not saying the current system is perfect, but there is no clear alternative that would work any better across such a range of boat types and speeds.
Back to Top
Cirrus View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Oct 15
Location: UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 4:24pm
I'm not saying the current system is perfect, but there is no clear alternative that would work any better across such a range of boat types and speeds.

So is the suggestion - just 'Don't bother' ?   The current PN system is just another 'system' or approach and if the RYA don't see any reason to refine or review from time to time it will ultimately be doomed like any other non adjusting system.  You could conclude it does not need radical change but who knows if you don't ever put it under formal review.

This will just rumble on and on from time to time imo - and all the while usage of modified versions of the PN system, like the GL numbers, will grow.   This suggests a full review is warranted.

Furthermore you could even argue that the GL group is collectively doing exactly what clubs are supposed to do under the 'raw' PN system guidance - they are (mostly) adjusting the numbers to reflect their results !!   I don't see much wrong with that myself as the resulting racing really is close and the events that use GL continue to grow.  Is this only a coincidence ? 


Edited by Cirrus - 26 Jul 17 at 4:25pm
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 4:47pm
So it seems evolution not revolution is probably the way forward  Cool
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
turnturtle View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 05 Dec 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

So it seems evolution not revolution is probably the way forward  Cool

which is ironic, as that is EXACTLY what has gone on over the past decade.... despite all the vitriol and bile spewed on here.  
 


Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 17 at 5:33pm
And more than that: GL is exactly what should happen with local adjustment.  So Cirrus' point is circular: simply use the system as intended and you don't need to change the system!  So it doesn't suggest a review is warrented at all.

Also note that GL is difference for a particular purpose - aimed at adjusting the average performance based PY to better reflect potential performance.

As such this could make it more in the firing line for iGrf's 'gerrymandering' accusation....but I don't hear that.

And I'm not sure you can establish a causal link between GL PY use and event growth.  All  you can say is that GL use doesn't appear to limit event growth....because who knows how many sailors from class X,Y and Z were put off and didn't go?
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213 15>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy