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Change the PY System?

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sargesail View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Jeffers. Indeed and full marks to Peaky for that 'head above the parapet' moment! But seeing that you were the first person to respond to my post.... you get the chocolates for highlighting exactly some of the questions that OUGHT to be asked - and by the people who run the sport and not just the keyboard warriors on here. As I said in an earlier post, some of the discussion is becoming almost philosophical in it's content. What should the PY system do? Is it a measure of the boat or the boat and the crew sailing it (what if you had an 'inappropriate' helm in a boat - a Phantom sized helm in a......British Moth; is he allowed to struggle or does he get help from the PY?). This has to be right at the heart of the discussion! Do you have an 'interventionist' policy that says that  if it is breezy, then the PYs of boats like the Fireball and 420 take a hit, or do you leave the numbers as is and accept that every dog will have his day - one day, when the conditions suit!

I do not profess to have any answers but that is not the point! Is there an answer out there sounds better, but only if someone is asking the question in the first place. Given that here in the UK our sport has become beholden by the majority to some form of mixed fleet sailing, surely that then places a greater need for the development of better, more insightful systems. or maybe it doesn't and what we have now is the best that there is. It's just...... that notion sticks in my craw  as the easy get out answer of "it's good enough for them".

D/Ventnor, Isle of Wight

So philosophically:

I don't want an interventionist policy that changes PY numbers according to conditions.  Putting aside the impracticality of such a system given that conditions change (remember IMS anyone?) the logical extension of this position would be to have similar intervention for big or small crews in one-design fleets.  I want my sailing (and the results) to reflect the conditions, not have them filtered out.

It would be great if it could be 'the boat' but for all sorts of reasons many, but not all of which are covered in this thread, I do not believe that this is achievable without a complete rebuild of the sport top down.  And again that would risk killing the patient before it improves.

So an evidence (which means statistical analysis of results) based approach is the best way to go.  How could it be improved?  More results doesn't necessarily create 'better' PY numbers but it does start to reduce the potential impact of CSF, which, I think hits some craft hard - like the RS300, or the Graduate - faster than a GP14!  Really?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Hello,
I've seen my name crop up a couple of times. I've been reading from the beginning, but am not going to offer a view on PY methods. It's like religion, some take it on faith, some are non believers and some want to investigate the truth scientifically. These three groups will never reach a consensus and so discussion is best avoided for the sake of world peace.

Peaky - what does interest me is how much difference a change in weight or sail area makes to a Peaky number.

For an example:

When I were a lad the Graduate sailed off 124 and the GP14 off, I think, 118, maybe 119.  Now the Grad is 4 points faster (0.4 in old money).  How much of that would be down to the increase in sail area by Peaky number reckoning?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 9:44pm
You set course to suit wind direction, I generally go for a fast reaching course, see the Lasers blasting across the wind.
why not set PY to suit wind strength, we all know boats that go in a blow and boats that go in a drifter.
We have a black book of courses to suit wind direction for inexperienced race officers, it wouldn't take much more to add wind strengths and boats that will benefit, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Think the scale was the other way round...


Indeed it was
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Post Options Post Options   Quote giraffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 10:31pm
My son used to be a very poor oppie sailor. he got older became ordinary, did some more became reasonable and he is now really quite good. Is / (was) the PY of the boat wrong? When he gets into adult classes and is poor is the PY for that class wrong or is it him. Is the PY more correct when he gets better?

He practices a lot and has got better. His results have gone from nowhere to somewhere. With respect most people who can't sail their boat to its PY are just pretty ordinary- or alternatively the conditions that they are sailing in do not favour the boat eg a Contender on a river or a British Moth on the sea...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by sargesail


Originally posted by Peaky

Hello,
I've seen my name crop up a couple of times. I've been reading from the beginning, but am not going to offer a view on PY methods. It's like religion, some take it on faith, some are non believers and some want to investigate the truth scientifically. These three groups will never reach a consensus and so discussion is best avoided for the sake of world peace.

Peaky - what does interest me is how much difference a change in weight or sail area makes to a Peaky number.
For an example:
When I were a lad the Graduate sailed off 124 and the GP14 off, I think, 118, maybe 119.  Now the Grad is 4 points faster (0.4 in old money).  How much of that would be down to the increase in sail area by Peaky number reckoning?

I really don't want to get drawn into this, but to answer that question directly each extra metre of sail on a two man (kiteless) boat takes 31 points off according to the formula.
It is worth reiterating that it is an empirical formula, that is, it correlates reasonably well against observed results but makes no attempt to explain why and is not physics based. You'd need a VPP for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by giraffe

My son used to be a very poor oppie sailor. he got older became ordinary, did some more became reasonable and he is now really quite good. Is / (was) the PY of the boat wrong? When he gets into adult classes and is poor is the PY for that class wrong or is it him. Is the PY more correct when he gets better?

The PN should reflect the boat in some way, not the conditions or ability of the crew. The purpose being to allow different classes of boat to compete on a level playing field. This, in theory, means that two different boats sailed by two sets of hypothetical (or cloned) twins who happen to be exactly equal in sailing ability and each the perfect (or equally imperfect) weight and build for their boat would, averaged out over a range of sailing conditions and courses, end up in a perfect tie. Thus it is the sailors ability which makes the difference and the best sailor wins. 

He practices a lot and has got better. His results have gone from nowhere to somewhere. With respect most people who can't sail their boat to its PY are just pretty ordinary- or alternatively the conditions that they are sailing in do not favour the boat eg a Contender on a river or a British Moth on the sea...

Exactly and that is why the PYC suggest clubs adjust PNs to take local conditions into consideration. Personal handicaps are another matter entirely and should be nothing to do with the PY number.
 



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 25 Jul 17 at 11:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by sargesail


Originally posted by Peaky

Hello,
I've seen my name crop up a couple of times. I've been reading from the beginning, but am not going to offer a view on PY methods. It's like religion, some take it on faith, some are non believers and some want to investigate the truth scientifically. These three groups will never reach a consensus and so discussion is best avoided for the sake of world peace.

Peaky - what does interest me is how much difference a change in weight or sail area makes to a Peaky number.
For an example:
When I were a lad the Graduate sailed off 124 and the GP14 off, I think, 118, maybe 119.  Now the Grad is 4 points faster (0.4 in old money).  How much of that would be down to the increase in sail area by Peaky number reckoning?

I really don't want to get drawn into this, but to answer that question directly each extra metre of sail on a two man (kiteless) boat takes 31 points off according to the formula.
It is worth reiterating that it is an empirical formula, that is, it correlates reasonably well against observed results but makes no attempt to explain why and is not physics based. You'd need a VPP for that.

Appreciated and not trying to draw you in....but given that it correlates with observed results I thought it interesting to see what the answer was.  I'm now confused about whether 10 sqm was the old or is the new sail area for the Grad....I'll get there.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 11:39pm
10sqm is the new sail area, and it does look very nice too. I raced a Heron at Leigh Sailing Club in the mid '60s, the adjacent Lowton S C had a fleet of Graduates which were much more modern looking....... I don't recall being jealous TBH, but I'd left the heron fleet long before they went bermudan rig.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 11:56pm
I keep hearing in this a comparison test to allow some form of setting a py. How exactly are you going to manage that? Even on the same day at the same location the wind is so variable by the time the same jockey in inserted into boat b things will be different. That is the biggest problem with py racing. Then factor in tide and you are all over the place compared to a venue without tide. The only fair way is to factor in tide and wind strength. Once you do that you are into arguments over there wind strength and it died during the race, etc. It all complicates matters and if nothing else will potentially put even more people off.
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