Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 161752 Tynemouth |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Change the PY System? |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 25 Jul 17 at 9:21pm |
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So philosophically: I don't want an interventionist policy that changes PY numbers according to conditions. Putting aside the impracticality of such a system given that conditions change (remember IMS anyone?) the logical extension of this position would be to have similar intervention for big or small crews in one-design fleets. I want my sailing (and the results) to reflect the conditions, not have them filtered out. It would be great if it could be 'the boat' but for all sorts of reasons many, but not all of which are covered in this thread, I do not believe that this is achievable without a complete rebuild of the sport top down. And again that would risk killing the patient before it improves. So an evidence (which means statistical analysis of results) based approach is the best way to go. How could it be improved? More results doesn't necessarily create 'better' PY numbers but it does start to reduce the potential impact of CSF, which, I think hits some craft hard - like the RS300, or the Graduate - faster than a GP14! Really?
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Peaky - what does interest me is how much difference a change in weight or sail area makes to a Peaky number. For an example: When I were a lad the Graduate sailed off 124 and the GP14 off, I think, 118, maybe 119. Now the Grad is 4 points faster (0.4 in old money). How much of that would be down to the increase in sail area by Peaky number reckoning?
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423zero ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420 |
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You set course to suit wind direction, I generally go for a fast reaching course, see the Lasers blasting across the wind.
why not set PY to suit wind strength, we all know boats that go in a blow and boats that go in a drifter. We have a black book of courses to suit wind direction for inexperienced race officers, it wouldn't take much more to add wind strengths and boats that will benefit, etc.
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turnturtle ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Indeed it was |
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giraffe ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 10 May 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 148 |
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My son used to be a very poor oppie sailor. he got older became ordinary, did some more became reasonable and he is now really quite good. Is / (was) the PY of the boat wrong? When he gets into adult classes and is poor is the PY for that class wrong or is it him. Is the PY more correct when he gets better?
He practices a lot and has got better. His results have gone from nowhere to somewhere. With respect most people who can't sail their boat to its PY are just pretty ordinary- or alternatively the conditions that they are sailing in do not favour the boat eg a Contender on a river or a British Moth on the sea... |
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I really don't want to get drawn into this, but to answer that question directly each extra metre of sail on a two man (kiteless) boat takes 31 points off according to the formula. It is worth reiterating that it is an empirical formula, that is, it correlates reasonably well against observed results but makes no attempt to explain why and is not physics based. You'd need a VPP for that. |
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Sam.Spoons ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3401 |
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The PN should reflect the boat in some way, not the conditions or ability of the crew. The purpose being to allow different classes of boat to compete on a level playing field. This, in theory, means that two different boats sailed by two sets of hypothetical (or cloned) twins who happen to be exactly equal in sailing ability and each the perfect (or equally imperfect) weight and build for their boat would, averaged out over a range of sailing conditions and courses, end up in a perfect tie. Thus it is the sailors ability which makes the difference and the best sailor wins.
Exactly and that is why the PYC suggest clubs adjust PNs to take local conditions into consideration. Personal handicaps are another matter entirely and should be nothing to do with the PY number.
Edited by Sam.Spoons - 25 Jul 17 at 11:06pm |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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sargesail ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Appreciated and not trying to draw you in....but given that it correlates with observed results I thought it interesting to see what the answer was. I'm now confused about whether 10 sqm was the old or is the new sail area for the Grad....I'll get there.
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Sam.Spoons ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3401 |
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10sqm is the new sail area, and it does look very nice too. I raced a Heron at Leigh Sailing Club in the mid '60s, the adjacent Lowton S C had a fleet of Graduates which were much more modern looking....... I don't recall being jealous TBH, but I'd left the heron fleet long before they went bermudan rig.....
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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maxibuddah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760 |
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I keep hearing in this a comparison test to allow some form of setting a py. How exactly are you going to manage that? Even on the same day at the same location the wind is so variable by the time the same jockey in inserted into boat b things will be different. That is the biggest problem with py racing. Then factor in tide and you are all over the place compared to a venue without tide. The only fair way is to factor in tide and wind strength. Once you do that you are into arguments over there wind strength and it died during the race, etc. It all complicates matters and if nothing else will potentially put even more people off.
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Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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