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Change the PY System?
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Do Different View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 11:27am
Exactly Doug.H.

I was thinking the same but I thought I'd only add to the white noise by posting.

I could go on but what's the point? It's always "their" fault anyway.

BTW. I wonder how many points PYs should be adjusted for angle of heel boats are sailed at off upright? (I joke of course).
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Do Different

BTW. I wonder how many points PYs should be adjusted for angle of heel boats are sailed at off upright? (I joke of course).

+1 per degree of heel  Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 11:58am
The point is that the RYA state that clubs should change the numbers for local use.  But when you get into it, the effort to do so is high and the rewards low.  Little wonder, then, that most clubs don't bother. 

Which means the current system is broke.  Or maybe it's just like democracy - the worst form of handicapping, except for all the other forms that have been tried from time to time.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by A2Z


Originally posted by turnturtle

NO- Laser sailing is riddled with variables in its own right.   Using it as a benchmark, beyond its generous offering of real world results data for PY, is utter preposterous

What do you mean by this TT?  All boats are riddled with variables, but they all only have a single PY.  


I mean they are inappropriate points of reference for a general purpose club handicap system to use as its primary benchmark- hence why the current system is the best it's going to get
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 7:43pm
Why change it and what aspects will changes make better.

Strikes me it's just like real life, far from perfect all the time but sometimes you get lucky. 

It has been said that Clubs won't locally adjust because it is too much work and causes more arguments. Well that tells a story of what a pain the whole affair is, for one I'm grateful for all the work PYAG an'll do that means I can simply sail to a national system.

To my mind it is all bluster and bar talk about knack all, small percentages really. I can understand why people obsess about it but of course they're simply wrong Wink

It is the contradiction that puzzles me; it is plainly obvious that no system can ever fairly rate all boats over all wind strengths and venues. So if you care about results that much search out or build class racing and if you don't care enough to do that and prefer billy no mates sailing why are you making such a fuss.

If you're a sailor you'll sail what you fancy primarily for the joy of it and if you're a racer it's class racing or PY and take it like a grown up.

   
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 9:32pm
It is the contradiction that puzzles me; it is plainly obvious that no system can ever fairly rate all boats over all wind strengths and venues. So if you care about results that much search out or build class racing and if you don't care enough to do that and prefer billy no mates sailing why are you making such a fuss.

Clap Spot on.

Though of course there are some people for whom making a fuss is the end in itself.
Peter
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 17 at 11:01pm
I don't think anyone disagrees that it is impractical to fairly rate all boats over all wind strengths and venues.  But there could be more transparency, an explanation of the methodology published on the RYA website, better filtering of small changes, better communication and more realistic setting of expections regarding accuracy than we currently get. I'm sorry if that comes across as being disrespectful to volunteers who run the system, but the RYA is a professional outfit and should be held to account as such.  
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 17 at 9:21am
I can understand why people obsess about it but of course they're simply wrong Wink

I can appreciate why some say that they are not really bothered - and the humour (!) - it is a tiresome subject and we all agree it will never be perfect.  If that is so then why are you bothered when others highlight what they believe are current failings and propose change to possibly improve it ... after all if what you say is true it would not really bother you anyway.  

You would be just as happy if say the GL numbers were used or the RYA themselves radically changed the methodology surely ...  Wink  (maybe the status quo quietly suits some though !)

oops- time to go sailing.


Edited by Cirrus - 23 Jul 17 at 9:22am
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 17 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by PeterG

I can't see any merit.

Having a fixed comparator may seem attractive at first sight, but what is the actual benefit? All that matters is that the relatives remain correct.

And you then create the problem, that others have raised that if your fixed point moves, as it can legitimately under PY you have to fiddle everything else.

previous genesis of the PY system have appeared to  use a scratch boat , but it assumes that the scratch boat  does not move  performance wise ... 
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 17 at 6:08pm
Well Cirrus, my point is I am bothered but about sailing, much as yourself seems to be,  I also went sailing yesterday and racing today; always the best antidote...........

To paraphrase  "all agree.. never be perfect" "believe are current failings" "possibly improve it". Sounds like a proposal to change one imperfect system for another imperfect but different system.

My concern is that it dominates and distracts thinking from sailing and gives newcomers something of a sideshow to worry about when there is so much more that influences your racing results. 

"status quo quietly suits" nope, not really, if I want know how I'm doing I'll go to a class meeting.
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