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Laser radial sail price |
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davidyacht 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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 Topic: Laser radial sail pricePosted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:18pm |
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Always the possibility of another competitor protesting a non-legal boat if it is sailing with replica sails, they would win the protest, unless provision in the NOR, however might lose a few friends.
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Happily living in the past
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Online Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:41pm |
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Hark, is this Mr 'only fleet racing can be taken seriously' suggesting that folk who try and maintain the integrity of their class' fleet racing are somehow unsporting? The irony is strong with this one...
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:42pm |
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So, it is replica sails causing the increase in the Laser yardstick...
Think I need more convincing on that one. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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davidyacht
Really should get out more
Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:17pm |
Think that my comments have been misconstrued, I have previously posted that it would seem that a Laser is only a Laser class dinghy if it has manufacturer supplied sails; it is up to the club to define its policy on this in the NOR's, presumably a club can permit Laser hulls sailing with non manufacturer supplied sails and top masts if it wishes, just that they are not Lasers. My point was that unless a club builds this into their NOR, there is the possibility of discontent between Laser owners who have forked out for genuine sails and those who have not. I have succumbed to the power of argument on this forum, that there are indeed loads of Laser hulls lying in boat parks, and together with replica sails, they do represent a good value way to get people out racing in what has always been a fun boat. In which case their is probably a good case for a club allowing a replica sail Lasers to have a PY, or even have class racing. I suspect that if the sail profile is no different, performance will not be different than the variations seen in other fleets with a single PY number, in the Solos there is a single PY number that covers sails of the same area, whether these are radial cut or crosscut. Whilst I am very supportive of the concept of design rights, it does seem that Laser's sail pricing does not do much to advance the sport at grass roots level, though I guess their logic is based on the "man maths" idea that you can trade up to a new boat for the price of a sail ... by charging a high price for said sail, resulting in increased boat sales. I hope that man maths is not misconstrued as a politically incorrect phrase in this instance. |
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Happily living in the past
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Neal_g
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 07 Oct 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 323 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:49pm |
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Isn't the first rule of py not to exclude any persons from racing due to not having a number PYS is a lovely inclusive organisation for all dinghy sailer.
How many boats have changed names.when design rights were sold yet retained there orginal PY. I can think of 3 versions at least of the original blaze sail by sobstad Hyde and now north's all class legal because the rules were changed. But they all contribute to py. Guess the man in power can chnage sail makers to suit I guess |
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(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
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Paramedic
Really should get out more
Joined: 27 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 929 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:17am |
I hadn't really thought of that one, but i would imagine that if you remove replica sails from the PY system you would also remove a large percentage of the poor results (Sailor, not equipment) from the mix. I agree with David personally, a Laser with a replica sail is not a Laser. Clubs who don't separately in their NOR permit replica equipped Lasers to sail with the class and have a separate PY for replica equipped Lasers (which may happen to be the same as the normal PY) leave themselves wide open to a problem if someone takes umbrage with unmeasured equipment on another boat. You can't enforce class rules for one class and "allow" them to be flouted in another.
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turnturtle
Really should get out more
Joined: 05 Dec 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2538 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:29am |
Me too- I used to be 100% anti them for even club racing, but have to accept opinion presented here as well as local evidence of what good they can do to get boats out of the weeds. Obviously I could have been steadfast in my opinion, but when faced with this, changing my own opinion was the logical thing to do. |
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Cirrus
Really should get out more
Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 590 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:36am |
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Maybe it would be an option then to allow pattern sails - but only PROVIDED they are individually measured and the sail producer is not allowed to add any sort of class logo on them until a royalty fee is paid (and maybe prove it by fixing a 'use-once' button to the sail). The royalty fee is paid to the class design rights holders with a proportion of this then directly going to the CLASS ASSOCIATIONS to support and promote the class and class racing.
The gripe about 'knock-off' sails is that most (all?) of the self-styled 'Robin Hoods' do not currently contribute one iota to the recurring periodic costs of tooling replacement for the class hulls etc that are completely borne by the hull builder today OR pay a brass farthing to the promotion of the target class or its racing organisation. They freeload off the investment and expenditure of others who do take risk and trade on the goodwill generated by others... should we seek to change this or simply carry on as now ? Now I'm sure quite a few reasonable 'other' sailmakers out there might think this is an attractive and reasonable route for some of the SMOD classes to take where they are obviously excluded today .... There would be many secondary implications but would they in principle switch from 'poachers' to becomming gamekeepers ? I do have reason to enquire .....  |
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Online Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:18am |
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I'm not sure what you're actually asking for. Any class association has the right, subject to negotiations with the builder if the builder owns rights to the class, to permit multiple sailmakers in the class. Of course if they do the result is normally competition between sailmakers for the fastest sail and prices escalating. The awful example of Optimist sail prices should be kept in mind.
The reason cheap knock off sails are cheap is primarily because they aren't class legal. There aren't many multiple sailmaker classes where you'll see large numbers of cheap sails. The other thing that should be considered is why SMOD boats exist in the first place. The prime USP was that the owners didn't have to bother about boat speed, or worry about which sailmaker they should use because everything was the same. As soon as you allow multiple sailmakers that advantage (if you consider it an advantage, which presumably those who signed up did) is lost, and you've taken away that certainty of equality not just from the people who want to buy alternate sails, but from every person who sails the class. This is, of course, why class associations have votes on rule changes. Edited by JimC - 18 Apr 17 at 11:18am |
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iGRF
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:21am |
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Well I'm going to put the counter argument, since the 'trade' do bugger all for us as customers, they neither build in a margin for, nor support a local dealer structure so that void is filled by the local sail builder who eaks out an existence making covers and assisting in minor repairs.
Because for the most part the entire cottage charade that is this sports 'industry' have not a clue about the basic requirements for marketing or customer service that the modern world comes to expect, so it is hardly surprising that an anarchic supply chain has evolved and will continue to do so all the time there are excesses of margin and the minimum of service in what is largely a vertical model. In other words - Foxtrot Oscar with your 'royalty fees' we'll support who we feel gives us the best price/service ratio and in my world that is an embryonic local sailmaking business. Edited by iGRF - 18 Apr 17 at 10:24am |
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