Laser radial sail price
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12725
Printed Date: 06 Jul 25 at 7:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Laser radial sail price
Posted By: sixlasers
Subject: Laser radial sail price
Date Posted: 13 Apr 17 at 6:41pm
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I was thinking about buying a new laser radial sail.I checked the price last week and it was £394.95. I looked again this week and the price had gone up to £540! Anyone know why? It seems a big price jump. I have always been particular about buying the official product but cant help feeling that its getting too expensive. Our club has a relaxed attitude to replica sails and you can buy one for £200. As I am into my 6th decade and dont travel much now, I am more than tempted to go down the replica route. If the replica suppliers can supply a product at much less than half the price then why cant laser keep their prices down? They surely must have more buying power. Just checked and an Aero 7 sail is £409. If RS can do it at this price then why cant Laser? |
Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 8:40am
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I would guess this is because of the unexpected repair they need to make to their factory wall.... In all seriousness laser Sail pricing has been a joke for many years. Ring up and whinge at them and say you are considering buying a replica they may give you a discount. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 1:55pm
| Most OD sailors, myself included, are prepared to pay significantly over the odds for a class-legal sail, so long as the manufacturer is putting something back into supporting the class. Laser on the other hand is just treating its customers as a herd of cash-cows. Buy a replica. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 10:24pm
| Do the replica sail makers have to pay royalties to laser ? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 10:32pm
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No ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 14 Apr 17 at 10:44pm
| Wow, try that with rugby or football gear. |
Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:40am
| There is also a contribution to the Laser Class Association from the sale of each sail. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:22am
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There is no right or wrong on this - it's your boat.
Personally I'd have no issue any boat handicap racing at club level with a replica sail, but I'd draw a line at buying one for anything other than a Laser myself. We each have our own levels of acceptability on this topic, and more often than not, will be guided by the general consensus of the club we are sailing at. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 12:03pm
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A certain level of pragmatism seems appropriate, if I bought a £500 L@ser to race at my home club I doubt I could justify a £540 sail so a replica would be the only sensible option. I do get the 'One Design' concept and for open meetings and championships disallowing replicas makes sense but if allowing them in the club handicap fleet means more boats on the water then that can only be good. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 12:07pm
I wonder how much it is?  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 12:41pm
| I would say the soft contribution replica sails have made to the overall 'de-nettling' of club grade Lasers across the globe are worth way more in real terms to the Laser sailing game than whatever nominal crumbs Rastegar gives via the overpriced rag. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 1:03pm
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The pound has dropped a massive amount but this seems a mad price increase.
I guess I won't be getting a new sail this year after all. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 2:00pm
I don't think you'd be in too much trouble with the lawyers for producing a plain white rugby shirt. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 5:22pm
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Most of the issues with replica/counterfeit gear is to do with trade marks and 'passing off' if you aren't pretending it's the real thing and it doesn't copy the trade mark of the original the law won't be interested. Laser can't copyright the sail dimensions or design (people have been making broad seamed sails for hundreds of years, and radial cut since long before the Laser was a twinkle in BK's eye) only their trademark. Thus replica Blaze sails can't carry the 'Blaze' logo but, as long as they don't there's nowt the CA or builder can do to stop another sailmaker making them. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 5:26pm
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Given the sh*t fight just gone down in Connecticut, if Laser had any legal grounds to challenge the training sail market, then frankly they'd have done it years ago.
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 6:32pm
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Thus replica Blaze sails can't carry the 'Blaze' logo but, as long as
they don't there's nowt the CA or builder can do to stop another
sailmaker making them. But when they do .. even if the typeface is 'different' or 'modified' they simply invite legal action as some may well find out before too long !! You can put what you like up your mast but not with someone else's logo or name on it.... A different point but it is also interesting that some clubs submit PN returns to the RYA that include pattern sail users as being 'in class' because locally they have decided to allow them to race within a class... A 'faster' or 'slower' substitute training sail could possibly lead to an inaccurate PN ... Discuss ! |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 7:22pm
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When we used to race our 'One Design Class' Boards in the Open class, the Class Legal sail was often substituted for a local built sail, so such a sail built locally to the Open class measurements which would be different to the class would often carry say an M logo, now it would be a very foolish manufacturer to attempt or threaten legal action to prevent that use, indeed to my memory it was never tested. Handicap racing I see as the equivalent to our Open class, without the measurement restrictions of course, so I can see nothing any dinghy class could do to stop any of us using local built sails with the class insignia if we so wish. Certainly that outfit could not be used in class events, but what we do locally or even at handicap affairs is no one elses business other than our own and I fail to see any legal precedent that would be broken. Copywrite even, only just applies if someone is attempting to profit from it's use, so provided the owner alone sticks on a logo and the sails are not marketed as that classes sail it's not going to stand and the cost of such a case would be beyond the sensible pursuit from the confines of the balance sheets of most of the sailing company I've ever studied here in the UK. No I'm sorry if they wish to continue making ludicrously high margins from sails then they can only reap the backlash, full laser sails could be landed duty paid for 50 USD not so long ago when I looked it it with one of my then suppliers of windsurfing sails they are silly cheap to build and as for my own class I'm going to have a full technora or similar membrane sail built for half the price of the rubbish it comes with and I will enjoy sailing the boat the more as a result, that is their problem not mine.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 7:42pm
My point exactly, as long as it doesn't have somebody else's copyrighted name or design or trademarked logo you can make, sell, and use it with impunity. I'm not arguing the morality of it though. I do agree that clubs accepting replica sails and then submitting PY returns for them might distort the numbers but, most would agree that replica/training sails are usually a less carefully constructed copy of the 'real thing' so the 'serious' sailors of the boat would benefit from a slightly higher number (and add that even if the replica sails are faster the people buying them are unlikely to be the best sailing the boat). I agree with SMODs (and other One Designs) not allowing non-class legal sails at open meetings and championship events (it would make a nonsense of the 'One Design' ethic) but to try to discourage occasional club racers or non-racers having access to cheaper sails seems a bit counter productive. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 8:09pm
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Does the RYA have a policy on 'class' submissions from clubs that include 'pattern' or so called 'training' sails for PN purposes? When you have a system that supposes an accuracy of approximately 1/1000 will these assumed 'slower' non-class sails lead to an obvious underestimation of true class speed and handicap ? .. or quite possibly vice versa ? Another elephant stumbling around in the PN living room .....
|
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 8:10pm
| I think the RYA ought to be glad of the returns, replica or otherwise! Hardly an elephant in the room, rather a field mouse outside your tent in a campsite ... |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:18pm
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Always the possibility of another competitor protesting a non-legal boat if it is sailing with replica sails, they would win the protest, unless provision in the NOR, however might lose a few friends. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:41pm
| Hark, is this Mr 'only fleet racing can be taken seriously' suggesting that folk who try and maintain the integrity of their class' fleet racing are somehow unsporting? The irony is strong with this one... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:42pm
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So, it is replica sails causing the increase in the Laser yardstick...
Think I need more convincing on that one. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:17pm
Think that my comments have been misconstrued, I have previously posted that it would seem that a Laser is only a Laser class dinghy if it has manufacturer supplied sails; it is up to the club to define its policy on this in the NOR's, presumably a club can permit Laser hulls sailing with non manufacturer supplied sails and top masts if it wishes, just that they are not Lasers. My point was that unless a club builds this into their NOR, there is the possibility of discontent between Laser owners who have forked out for genuine sails and those who have not. I have succumbed to the power of argument on this forum, that there are indeed loads of Laser hulls lying in boat parks, and together with replica sails, they do represent a good value way to get people out racing in what has always been a fun boat. In which case their is probably a good case for a club allowing a replica sail Lasers to have a PY, or even have class racing. I suspect that if the sail profile is no different, performance will not be different than the variations seen in other fleets with a single PY number, in the Solos there is a single PY number that covers sails of the same area, whether these are radial cut or crosscut. Whilst I am very supportive of the concept of design rights, it does seem that Laser's sail pricing does not do much to advance the sport at grass roots level, though I guess their logic is based on the "man maths" idea that you can trade up to a new boat for the price of a sail ... by charging a high price for said sail, resulting in increased boat sales. I hope that man maths is not misconstrued as a politically incorrect phrase in this instance. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:49pm
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Isn't the first rule of py not to exclude any persons from racing due to not having a number PYS is a lovely inclusive organisation for all dinghy sailer.
How many boats have changed names.when design rights were sold yet retained there orginal PY. I can think of 3 versions at least of the original blaze sail by sobstad Hyde and now north's all class legal because the rules were changed. But they all contribute to py. Guess the man in power can chnage sail makers to suit I guess ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:17am
I hadn't really thought of that one, but i would imagine that if you remove replica sails from the PY system you would also remove a large percentage of the poor results (Sailor, not equipment) from the mix. I agree with David personally, a Laser with a replica sail is not a Laser. Clubs who don't separately in their NOR permit replica equipped Lasers to sail with the class and have a separate PY for replica equipped Lasers (which may happen to be the same as the normal PY) leave themselves wide open to a problem if someone takes umbrage with unmeasured equipment on another boat. You can't enforce class rules for one class and "allow" them to be flouted in another.
|
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:29am
Me too- I used to be 100% anti them for even club racing, but have to accept opinion presented here as well as local evidence of what good they can do to get boats out of the weeds. Obviously I could have been steadfast in my opinion, but when faced with this, changing my own opinion was the logical thing to do. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:36am
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Maybe it would be an option then to allow pattern sails - but only PROVIDED they are individually measured and the sail producer is not allowed to add any sort of class logo on them until a royalty fee is paid (and maybe prove it by fixing a 'use-once' button to the sail). The royalty fee is paid to the class design rights holders with a proportion of this then directly going to the CLASS ASSOCIATIONS to support and promote the class and class racing. The gripe about 'knock-off' sails is that most (all?) of the self-styled 'Robin Hoods' do not currently contribute one iota to the recurring periodic costs of tooling replacement for the class hulls etc that are completely borne by the hull builder today OR pay a brass farthing to the promotion of the target class or its racing organisation. They freeload off the investment and expenditure of others who do take risk and trade on the goodwill generated by others... should we seek to change this or simply carry on as now ? Now I'm sure quite a few reasonable 'other' sailmakers out there might think this is an attractive and reasonable route for some of the SMOD classes to take where they are obviously excluded today .... There would be many secondary implications but would they in principle switch from 'poachers' to becomming gamekeepers ? I do have reason to enquire ..... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:18am
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I'm not sure what you're actually asking for. Any class association has the right, subject to negotiations with the builder if the builder owns rights to the class, to permit multiple sailmakers in the class. Of course if they do the result is normally competition between sailmakers for the fastest sail and prices escalating. The awful example of Optimist sail prices should be kept in mind.
The reason cheap knock off sails are cheap is primarily because they aren't class legal. There aren't many multiple sailmaker classes where you'll see large numbers of cheap sails. The other thing that should be considered is why SMOD boats exist in the first place. The prime USP was that the owners didn't have to bother about boat speed, or worry about which sailmaker they should use because everything was the same. As soon as you allow multiple sailmakers that advantage (if you consider it an advantage, which presumably those who signed up did) is lost, and you've taken away that certainty of equality not just from the people who want to buy alternate sails, but from every person who sails the class. This is, of course, why class associations have votes on rule changes. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:21am
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Well I'm going to put the counter argument, since the 'trade' do bugger all for us as customers, they neither build in a margin for, nor support a local dealer structure so that void is filled by the local sail builder who eaks out an existence making covers and assisting in minor repairs.
Because for the most part the entire cottage charade that is this sports 'industry' have not a clue about the basic requirements for marketing or customer service that the modern world comes to expect, so it is hardly surprising that an anarchic supply chain has evolved and will continue to do so all the time there are excesses of margin and the minimum of service in what is largely a vertical model. In other words - Foxtrot Oscar with your 'royalty fees' we'll support who we feel gives us the best price/service ratio and in my world that is an embryonic local sailmaking business. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:06pm
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You can't easily have it both ways .. ‘you’ choose a SMOD
class because it offers reasonably priced, reasonably identical boats and
coupled to this a reasonable racing circuit supported by the builder and a few
suppliers who throw in real £££. The alternative is you have a
'restricted' class, no set builder or suppliers provided the equipment measures
to a set of rules - and if you are unlucky as so many were in the past - an
arms race both technical and financial. Now 'absolute advantage' within
the rules is more often what is being sold and purchased. Those
with deepest pockets (and a bit of skill of course !) tend to win ... and you
still have to have your kit measured and that even means often paying a measurer (!) ... and other ‘stay-ahead’
regular expenditure. No point in buying cheaper but slower sails now so
maybe "I'll also have a couple of 3DL sails and the very latest skinny
imported carbon toothpick - It is allowed and why ever not - I work hard all week and deserve to enjoy my limited time available ... blah blah etc etc
?" So I'm asking 'what happens' if the SMOD builders were to drop
full control of sail supply ? What are the full implications ? I'm
neither for or against. But there
is a question that some have raised here and elsewhere over sail supply into
the SMOD classes. Is there a better way forward is what is being asked –
one that permits owners to legally buy cheaper sails (or more expensive ones) if they really want but one that does not load new hull prices or race organisation and £££ support ..... Builders and rights holders could work with multiple
suppliers I'm sure, and they could deal directly with boat owners – but the current financial model inevitably
has to change. Anything beyond simply has
to be properly sustainable for all concerned. Course we could call just copy that model of business perfection
many of the plank sailors championed so successfully in recent decades...... and they all ‘Foxtrot Oscared’ into the sunset
soon enough without realising or ever
understanding why their ‘market’ really was
not sustainable. Or large. Naive. The tough school of unintended consequences beckons .... so why not look at all the implications ? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:42pm
|
But there is no one model for SMODs, and there is no rigid divide. There are all sorts of different models out there.
The B14 is an example of an otherwise SMOD class that permits multiple sail suppliers. There are others. And even more classes that are effectively SMOD because they only license one builder at a time and that builder is required to deliver a standard specification. I think some of those classes also limit sails to a limited number of sailmakers. If you look at a list of most popular classes there seems to be a very healthy range of options between rigidly single supplier to completely open. It seems to me the data tells us that any of the variations between completely closed suppliers and completely open is a reasonable and appropriate way to run a class. I still don't really understand what your "what happens" is about since there are plenty of examples. All you really seem to be saying is "should a class consider moving to multiple suppliers for sails", and my answer would be "sure, if you want to, plenty do, but don't go kidding yourselves it will necessarily lead to cheaper sails". |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 4:10pm
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I agree jim. It won't lead to cheaper sails if you did switch to multiple supplies apart from when order books are quiet and winter sales are on. The simple fact is a SMOD class an open sail maker would. Look are go they at eused to paying X for a sail do base price there. After all they are business persons. As for independent sail makers being freeloaders as described earlier. Think that is a shocking term especially if not there whole business. What they suffer from is a boay builder effectively creating a monoply situation for his prefered sailmaker due to payment or whatever deal is arranged. Last time I checked builders make boats and sail makers make sails the 2 should never be confused. As a boat builder on his profit sheet will have the sails he bought for x pounds then his Comission on top for hos take just to eek up his profits a bit more. Which is a terrible free load using someone elses skill then for placing in a boat or passing to a customer they add £££ pounds to the price. ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 4:51pm
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Boat builders should build boats, sailmakers should be in a position to supply entire rigs, the choice of what rig you use should be down to the individual sailor and it should be geared to his/her weight, not the stupid rigidity of policy that prevails at present in which if you weigh such and such you shouldn't sail this class you should sail that one, the streaker solo being a classic example, I want the solo retracting centreboard but I don't want the big rig so sorry no cb for you young man you must have the silly Streaker and it's pathetic dagger and slab sided rudder.
The only class doing anything close to this is, surprise surprise, selling and selling well, one day somebody else might listen. Take my Solution I could sell dozens by applying the same formula and opening it up to all sail builders, but do you think for one moment the class or the builder even listen, they are so stuck in their ways. The most successful windsurfing class of recent years does exactly this, One board and multiple weight group assigned rigs and no pumping, it has gone from strength to strength around the globe, would have worked here had the RYA refused to accept it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 5:07pm
|
The reality is BOTH sailmaker(s) and boat builders have to
work within a sustainable business model. There are no orders for sails
if there were no boats ! Blindingly obvious of course but sometimes it
bears repeating be economic basics.
It does not ultimately matter whether the 'owner cost'
supposition is right or wrong as the builder will and has to recover some
'lost' margin on other parts and services sold. They can reduce other
expenditure on the class, not replace tooling as often, cut sponsorship and so
on. The 'zombie' danger may do
more than just lurk after a few more seasons sadly - not necessarily my argument but
classes don’t get dropped because they are still attractive ! (btw I've
yet to see a supplier of 'training' sails successfully pick up a dropped class
and run with it !!) They have very little 'fresh meat' in terms of modern lightweight classes to address and get involved with .... except on the single builder/SMOD lines. Would 'they' fully respond if any 'new' class coming along allowed multiple sailmakers 'in' .... on a basis that looked a lot closer to the 'traditional' class model. An 'approved list' if you like .... (For a start no class or builder seriously wants the hassle of measuring every single sail - this would need the sail supplier(s) to warrant their products as meeting formally issued class rules). Next can we tallk about spar suppliers .... only maybe not. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 5:22pm
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The key here is value. I was told by a top Laser sailor that a new sail is good for one regatta; I mean WTF ... really ... If I was club sailing a Laser it would be replica sail.
|
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 5:29pm
C spar produces an alternative range of carbon spars now available for laser sailing boats. These have been developed to give the club/recreational laser sailor an opportunity to upgrade to lighter, more responsive and long lasting spars at little more cost than the aluminium versions. Could not resist  ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:11pm
That's exactly right - and crucially, they've upped the price of the "old 1 regatta radial sail" to the price of the "new hopefully more that one regatta standard sail", without updating the sail so it will last longer, or giving the sailor any other kind of additional improvement or value. ...or warning that it was going to happen.
 |
Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:26pm
| Thankfully I ditched the Laser for the D-Zero - the North laminate sails seem to last forever. Additionally they don't even appear costly when compared to the price of a new Dacron Radial sail |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:40pm
If you are in that position you have chosen to buy a Laser. You have signed up to that, and everything that goes with it. Other classes are available. I dont see why some Laser sailors expect to have some "right" to do something that in any other class would be frowned upon. I have less of a problem if clubs do the things I suggested my last post.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 6:59pm
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Most (all?) traditional classes measure every single sail. And every hull, mast, boom, foil, etc. We take it on trust that SMOD manufacturers will build every boat/rig to spec but who's to say if boats/rigs are never measured? An overweight boat is always going to be slower than a minimum weight boat, a better cut/carefully constructed sail will always be faster than a badly made sail, etc...... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 7:32pm
| I have never seen a Laser with a replica sail, what percentage of Lasers racing "class" or "handicap" are using them ? |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 7:43pm
Club culture plays a big part. One club I sail at has a large fleet, almost all are on replicas - this is the club that needs to sort out its NOR! The other has about 4-5 regularly out, i think all are genuine sails. Interestingly the first club has a class start, the other does not! Some are quite hard to spot, and you probably have seen them just not clocked them as replicas.
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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 7:50pm
Well, the point of the thread was that the price has randomly increased by 37% without any warning before it was hijacked by people who may or may not agree with the SMOD concept as a whole  Personally I signed up to a class that sold you a new sail for 395 and had the understanding that it's only really good for a single week long regatta. When the class rules are up for a change we all get to vote on it...
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:38pm
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Yes the thread has drifted from the OP . Leaving aside variations of the SMOD model and design rights. The point in question is very specific to Laser. I agree when buying a Laser you are in principle entering into a contract. HOWEVER. There is a moral principle that a contract is only enforceable if it is fair and reasonable to both parties. I and it seems several others consider that Laser price their wares unreasonably above a fair market price and therefore feel little moral pressure to adhere to the contract. BTW. I haven't had a Laser for a long while now, partly because I believe them in official full class legal form using genuine replacement parts (sails, spars, foils) to be vastly overpriced.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:48pm
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A base model crosscut dacron solo sail is now £670 from a leading sailmaker. Granted, it'll last rather longer.
Sails in general have undergone something of a price hike, i think you'll find the Laser sail hasn't proportionately increased very much more than anything else has. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:50pm
| Dollar pricing to lofts from the Bainbridges of the world? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:00pm
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But a Laser 'training' sail can be had for £200...... They have a business model too and aren't making them at a loss...... ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:09pm
But you can't race properly with it................ The official Laser sail - whether its a rip off or not - is still significantly cheaper than a proven winning sail in equivalent classes. (Edit - I dont include the Aero and new breed classes as equivalent yet - this'll undoubtedly change, but the numbers aren't there yet.) You can no doubt buy a Solo sail thats much cheaper if you want to - will it be any good?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:35pm
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But, given the longevity of a 'real' Laser sail, a £200 replica is probably no less good a product and there is no reason why Laser couldn't build their 'official' sails for a better price. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:40pm
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I'm guessing most people who buy a 20 plus year old Laser aren't really buying into the Laser dream, they are simply buying an old boat to race against their mates. If the sail is knackered, they have 4 choices. Live with it, buy new, buy secondhand or buy a replica. Given the reputation Laser sails have for getting knackered quickly, it isn't surprising many opt for replicas. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 9:03am
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Exactly. I bought an old Laser for less than the cost of a Laser sail, to have a fallback if I can't find a crew for my Ent. I haven't got any prospect of getting "into the chocolates" at our club races with it, and frankly, I don't care about that. The boat came with two old sails, and, they're probably old and knackered compared to a new one, but am I really going to spend that amount of money on a new one? It's a hobby, not a profession, so: no. If my sails are beyond use, I'll either get a second-hand one, or, indeed, a replica one. I think I'm at one of the two clubs Paramedic mentioned above, just wondering which one... :) ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: sixlasers
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 9:10am
| I was happy to pay the £394.95. It was the 37% price hike I was objecting too. I havent been able to find out or understand why this increase happened. As far as I am aware no other sailmakers have raised prices to this extent. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 10:16am
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North Blaze sails went from £760 to £895 overnight recently, thats 18%, almost exactly corresponds to changes in the Dollar/Pound exchange rate at the time. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 1:01pm
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I was happy to pay the £394.95. It was the 37% price hike I was objecting too. I havent been able to find out or understand why this increase happened.
Some is clearly down to exchange rate - and I don't think anyone can complain about that. However, the increase is about twice the exchange rate difference. Purple Marine are still selling Mk1 full rig sails for £378, and Mk2 full rig for £540. The Mk1 Radial is now £540 too. So it seems that Laser have increased the price, above exchange rate issues, for the Mk2 sail - which is probably reasonable as it has involved development costs, probably is more expensive to make, and should last longer. However, they appear to have also decided to jack up the price for the old, unmodified Radial sail at the same time by the same amount. It's the same sort of over charging and lack of respect for customers that has been strengthening the market for replica Laser sails for years. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 1:41pm
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yes, the business model is to buy them from a rather large sail factory in the fareast.....where the labour part of the model is not earning UK minimum wage. if you actually asked a uk sailmaker and i mean a sailmaker who actually physically makes sails and not one who orders a sail to be made for them in another country, to make a radial sail that they design, cut and stitch together do you think it would still be significantly cheaper than £549?? likewise a crosscut dacron sail the materials cost the same pretty much wherever you are in the world so a £200 sail is saving on labour costs mostly (some of the replicas i have seen use a cheaper cloth). the unfortunate fact regarding the laser sail is that it is made in warehouses with cheap labour. Buying a replica is supporting no one really but large industrial sailmakers and forcing smaller sailmakers to cut their profits to compete against huge multinational sailmakers. ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 1:42pm
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Retail in the US&A is just over $600. Take off about 10% sales tax, divide by 1.25 ish for exchange, add 20% VAT, that gives you about the number Laser first thought of. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 2:16pm
Sorry but I can't see the relevance of your argument. Neither replicas nor "genuine" Laser sails are made by small sailmakers. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 3:39pm
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Has anyone checked to see how much the replicas have gone up by? They will have done, as cloth prices have increased
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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 3:56pm
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A Rooster (Sailing Solutions) Laser Standard Mk2 (Radial cut) is £210. Radial is £185, 4.7 is £175. ------------- Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986 |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 3:57pm
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Its funny i swear that's what i said.......oh hang on, if you keep the rest of the paragraph in...... "the unfortunate fact regarding the laser sail is that it is made in warehouses with cheap labour. Buying a replica is supporting no one really but large industrial sailmakers and forcing smaller sailmakers to cut their profits to compete against huge multinational sailmakers." my point being buying a replica or laser sail is no good for anyone selling them claiming to be a uk loft. no one wants to pay more than the boat is worth on sails, buy a £400 laser and buy a chinese sail, you may ask a 'local' sailmaker who due to labour etc turns out to be closer to the laser standard than the cheaper cloth and much cheaper labour. Laser now use a better dacron, so you are now buying a better cloth than 90% of replicas. When it comes down to it, how long do you think it takes to make a laser sail? one sailmaker from scratch with nothing premade? an hour? two? half a day? a whole day? two days? Ok in china they will have pre made batten pockets, luff socks, patches, they still take time to manufacture before a finished product. So how much for a day rate for skilled (ok semi skilled) labour? then add in intellectual property rights. Yes we all know we can design and make better than laser - but we haven't and can't because it has nailed the market. ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 4:00pm
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Kayospruce will sell you some Challenge Dacron for £20 a metre inc VAT, so about £200 for a replica seems reasonable. |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 4:04pm
It's the same company - so they've probably put the prices up in the US as well at the same time.
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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 4:06pm
Not the radial, only the Mk2 standard. Nobody has complained about paying more money for a better standard sail.
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Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 4:30pm
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Rooster Laser Radial Sail:- £185
MSB Laser Radial Sail:- £165 |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 5:12pm
yes i agree with you as the OP stated the radial rig hike is a bit rude! ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 5:21pm
sail area 7sqm for a laser 1? so what is that in pure cloth then? at £20m and what 7m of cloth? thats £140 before laser cutting (think they are pretty expensive) say £30 - 40 for a laser cutter to do their thing so we are at £170inc....then a bit of stitching.......who does that ? immigrants they earn less is that right? even at £5/hr i reckon on more than 3 hours to complete £185inc. ( clew, tack and head reinforcing to make up, batten pockets, luff sock, cringles in the corners, battens to cut and check, and a sail bag to boot). so battens and fittings what another £5? sailbag - i guess they go and pick one from a tree? £5? £195inc. Someone is making £5 whole pounds profit and i know it isn't the sailmaker or the designer of the laser sail. So for £200 what are you supporting? ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 6:38pm
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Even a small sailmaker won't be paying retail for his cloth, and it's a lot wider than a metre. You'd have to sell a fair few at £200 to pay the bills though. I guess the top Laser sailors will also be wanting a composite topmast this year? Anyone seen one yet? |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 7:42pm
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Was going to comment.....
But then realised what's the point only a small uk sailmaker. ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 7:47pm
Don't waste your time and get on with my new sail. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 19 Apr 17 at 8:48pm
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Now that is a point you have reminded me of the solution originally. Made by red eye sails. Then business collapsed and Hyde now build said sails and have added 250 to the price and changed the cloth to one of there spec.
------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 20 Apr 17 at 9:11am
Yes, a few people have them now. Only a few mind...
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 8:13am
You cannot easily sort it using NOR unless you deny protests based on measurement (cue can of worms being opened). There are other ways around it though if you really want to. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 8:31am
Don't see why not. All you need to say in the NOR is that the L class start/race/series is open to Laser class dinghies and boats that have Laser manufactured hulls with sails substantially similar to the official Laser class ones. Obviously there's a slippery slope there ("if he's allowed illegal sails, why shouldn't I be allowed a better rudder and a mainsheet system that doesn't catch the stern so easily"). Maybe the club would end up having to write their own set of class rules for their "Not-quite-a-Laser" class. The opinion I got from the RYA was that if a boat is deliberately taken out of class it is no longer a member of that class and the class rules do not apply. Logically then what races this non-class boat is eligible for depend on the NOR, and I know of no reason why the NOR cannot state that certain boats race alongside the Laser class rather than in a general handicap fleet. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 8:38am
Thats all it needs. And a PY for Laser manufactured hulls with substantially similar sails. Until someone tries to "optimise" the cut of their training sail I think everyone would be happy and it closes one of the two big avenues of Lasers being allowed to do stuff that noone else can. Changing rigs based on conditions is the other - one battle at a time :)
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 10:33am
| Changing rigs I do see on a regular basis, just assumed it was to do with reefing, never thought about it being a bit naughty. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 11:28am
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It's only naughty if the class rules or NOR prohibits it. Windsurfers do it all the time (: ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 11:43am
This thread refers to Lasers. In Lasers rig switching is cheating, and also has a negative impact on PYs |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 12:49pm
Its hardly cheating to sail one class in one race and another class in another race. It would only be cheating if you attempted to deceive the race committee about what you were sailing. If someone wants to come to our club Laser open and sail a Full rig in two races and a Radial rig in two races I don't see there's a problem, but the two boats will be scored separately. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 12:59pm
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Yup, same at my home club. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 5:22pm
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I, again, have a problem when a Laser can change his rig, get a PY increase AND count his result towards a series and I cant sail my singlehander if i can't get a crew and do the same. But thats another debate :)
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 6:18pm
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At every club I've been a member of, they can't.
It's always regarded as a separate entry. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 9:12pm
| In the class rules, Lasers may reef, or carry a second person! |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 9:35pm
But PY would stay the same. And reefing is surely wrapping main around mast, not putting a different mast and sail on. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 9:40pm
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If it's in the rules surely the PY would stay the same? But, agreed, changing the rig is not reefing. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Apr 17 at 10:07pm
| presumably to reef by rolling round mast you would have to remove top batten ? |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 24 Apr 17 at 4:40pm
| Given that it's quicker to sail with the sail un-reefed and just to trim it properly it's not so much of a real world problem! |