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Laser radial sail price

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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser radial sail price
    Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Next can we tallk about spar suppliers .... only maybe not.   Wink


C spar produces an alternative range of carbon spars now available for laser sailing boats. These have been developed to give the club/recreational laser sailor an opportunity to upgrade to lighter, more responsive and long lasting spars at little more cost than the aluminium versions.

Could not resist  LOL LOL
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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 5:22pm
The key here is value.

I was told by a top Laser sailor that a new sail is good for one regatta; I mean WTF ... really ...

If I was club sailing a Laser it would be replica sail.


Edited by 2547 - 18 Apr 17 at 6:22pm
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 5:07pm

The reality is BOTH sailmaker(s) and boat builders have to work within a sustainable business model.  There are no orders for sails if there were no boats !  Blindingly obvious of course but sometimes it bears repeating be economic basics.

The boat developer can work under any model that sustains their business - as can in fact the sailmaker.  If the customers prefer in aggregate a single sailmaker, several licensed and approved sail makers or totally open a la carte sail supply is not really the issue.  The builder must cover the long term development and maintenance costs of hull production - and can do so under any model.  Many SMOD classes have historically worked within the 'one-single tied supplier' model and if they are more than moderately successful this can and does attract 'cut price' alternative suppliers.  If this erodes the builders ability to maintain the class, replace tooling and make a working profit then it is only sensible for them to consider a different or modified financial model.   


Freeing up sail supply partially (to permit more than one maker) in part or even totally does appear attractive to some as it can (maybe) reduce the sail cost to owners.... but this will not necessarily be the case as can be argued. 

It does not ultimately matter whether the 'owner cost' supposition is right or wrong as the builder will and has to recover some 'lost' margin on other parts and services sold.  They can reduce other expenditure on the class, not replace tooling as often, cut sponsorship and so on.  The 'zombie' danger may do more than just lurk after a few more seasons sadly - not necessarily my argument but classes don’t get dropped because they are still attractive !  (btw I've yet to see a supplier of 'training' sails successfully pick up a dropped class and run with it !!)

So OK – Lets suppose we should all go for multiple sail suppliers.  It does work for some classes and in other markets.  I know of examples myself and I'm really interested to know what a few UK sailmakers think .... .  Where (multiple) sail suppliers are prepared to formally work with builders and form sustainable (but not exclusive)  partnerships it could offer boat owners more choice.  If you want a 'full-on' sail and can afford or justify the cost that is great.  Or if you want a low cost set, but that can also carry the logo and are class legal you can do that as well.  Get the financial model right and more can be happy more of the time ...  

We have a (UK) market today where some exceptionally good sail makers are restricted into mostly supporting a few venerable  'traditional' classes (mostly from the 50's/60/s etc) for most of their sail making income.  This is not necessarily good for anyone long term.

They have very little 'fresh meat' in terms of modern lightweight classes to address and get involved with .... except on the single builder/SMOD lines.  Would 'they' fully respond if any 'new' class coming along allowed multiple sailmakers 'in' .... on a basis that looked a lot closer to the 'traditional' class model.  An 'approved list' if you like .... (For a start no class or builder seriously wants the hassle of measuring  every single sail - this would need the sail supplier(s) to warrant their products as meeting formally issued class rules).

Next can we tallk about spar suppliers .... only maybe not.   Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 4:51pm
Boat builders should build boats, sailmakers should be in a position to supply entire rigs, the choice of what rig you use should be down to the individual sailor and it should be geared to his/her weight, not the stupid rigidity of policy that prevails at present in which if you weigh such and such you shouldn't sail this class you should sail that one, the streaker solo being a classic example, I want the solo retracting centreboard but I don't want the big rig so sorry no cb for you young man you must have the silly Streaker and it's pathetic dagger and slab sided rudder.
The only class doing anything close to this is, surprise surprise, selling and selling well, one day somebody else might listen. Take my Solution I could sell dozens by applying the same formula and opening it up to all sail builders, but do you think for one moment the class or the builder even listen, they are so stuck in their ways.

The most successful windsurfing class of recent years does exactly this, One board and multiple weight group assigned rigs and no pumping, it has gone from strength to strength around the globe, would have worked here had the RYA refused to accept it.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Apr 17 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 4:10pm
I agree jim. It won't lead to cheaper sails if you did switch to multiple supplies apart from when order books are quiet and winter sales are on. The simple fact is a SMOD class an open sail maker would. Look are go they at eused to paying X for a sail do base price there. After all they are business persons. As for independent sail makers being freeloaders as described earlier. Think that is a shocking term especially if not there whole business. What they suffer from is a boay builder effectively creating a monoply situation for his prefered sailmaker due to payment or whatever deal is arranged. Last time I checked builders make boats and sail makers make sails the 2 should never be confused. As a boat builder on his profit sheet will have the sails he bought for x pounds then his Comission on top for hos take just to eek up his profits a bit more. Which is a terrible free load using someone elses skill then for placing in a boat or passing to a customer they add £££ pounds to the price.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:42pm
But there is no one model for SMODs, and there is no rigid divide. There are all sorts of different models out there.

The B14 is an example of an otherwise SMOD class that permits multiple sail suppliers. There are others. And even more classes that are effectively SMOD because they only license one builder at a time and that builder is required to deliver a standard specification. I think some of those classes also limit sails to a limited number of sailmakers. If you look at a list of most popular classes there seems to be a very healthy range of options between rigidly single supplier to completely open.

It seems to me the data tells us that any of the variations between completely closed suppliers and completely open is a reasonable and appropriate way to run a class.

I still don't really understand what your "what happens" is about since there are plenty of examples. All you really seem to be saying is "should a class consider moving to multiple suppliers for sails", and my answer would be "sure, if you want to, plenty do, but don't go kidding yourselves it will necessarily lead to cheaper sails".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 1:06pm

You can't easily have it both ways .. ‘you’ choose a SMOD class because it offers reasonably priced, reasonably identical boats and coupled to this a reasonable racing circuit supported by the builder and a few suppliers who throw in real £££.  The alternative is you have a 'restricted' class, no set builder or suppliers provided the equipment measures to a set of rules - and if you are unlucky as so many were in the past - an arms race both technical and financial.   Now 'absolute advantage' within the rules is more often what is being sold and purchased.   Those with deepest pockets (and a bit of skill of course !) tend to win ... and you still have to have your kit measured and that even means often  paying a measurer (!) ... and other ‘stay-ahead’ regular expenditure.  No point in buying cheaper but slower sails now so maybe "I'll also have a couple of 3DL sails and the very latest skinny imported carbon toothpick - It is allowed and why ever not  - I work hard all week and deserve to enjoy my limited time available ... blah blah etc etc  ?"  

Now I sail and have raced on both sides of this divide - both have advantages and disadvantages.   The freeloader sail suppliers however paradoxically can benefit from the current policing of sail supply by builders at the moment. The builders argument is that without single source supply and the margins they can earn it will indirectly push up new boat prices and increase entry costs to events but if the market insists most will live with it.  Nobody else is likely to pay for replacement tooling or support  the classes involved  long term and builders have to see financial sense to carry on.  There are plenty of examples of classes being quietly ‘dropped’ by builders.  You can name a few I’m sure – very very few survive long term and prosper. ... more in fact become ‘zombie’ classes.  

So I'm asking 'what happens' if the SMOD builders were to drop full control of sail supply  ?  What are the full implications ?  I'm neither  for or against.  But there is a question that some have raised here and elsewhere over sail supply into the SMOD classes.   Is there a better way forward is what is being asked – one that permits owners to legally buy cheaper sails (or more expensive ones)  if they really want  but one that  does not load new hull prices or race organisation and £££ support .....  Builders and rights holders could work with multiple suppliers I'm sure, and they could deal directly with boat owners – but the current financial model inevitably has to change.   Anything beyond simply has to be properly sustainable for all concerned.

Course we could call just copy that model of business perfection many of the plank sailors championed so successfully in recent decades......    and they all ‘Foxtrot Oscared’ into the sunset  soon enough without realising or ever understanding why their ‘market’ really was not sustainable.  Or large.  Naive.   

The tough school of unintended consequences beckons ....  so why not look at all the implications ?   






Edited by Cirrus - 18 Apr 17 at 1:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:21am
Well I'm going to put the counter argument, since the 'trade' do bugger all for us as customers, they neither build in a margin for, nor support a local dealer structure so that void is filled by the local sail builder who eaks out an existence making covers and assisting in minor repairs.

Because for the most part the entire cottage charade that is this sports 'industry' have not a clue about the basic requirements for marketing or customer service that the modern world comes to expect, so it is hardly surprising that an anarchic supply chain has evolved and will continue to do so all the time there are excesses of margin and the minimum of service in what is largely a vertical model.

In other words - Foxtrot Oscar with your 'royalty fees' we'll support who we feel gives us the best price/service ratio and in my world that is an embryonic local sailmaking business.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Apr 17 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 10:18am
I'm not sure what you're actually asking for. Any class association has the right, subject to negotiations with the builder if the builder owns rights to the class, to permit multiple sailmakers in the class. Of course if they do the result is normally competition between sailmakers for the fastest sail and prices escalating. The awful example of Optimist sail prices should be kept in mind.

The reason cheap knock off sails are cheap is primarily because they aren't class legal. There aren't many multiple sailmaker classes where you'll see large numbers of cheap sails.

The other thing that should be considered is why SMOD boats exist in the first place. The prime USP was that the owners didn't have to bother about boat speed, or worry about which sailmaker they should use because everything was the same. As soon as you allow multiple sailmakers that advantage (if you consider it an advantage, which presumably those who signed up did) is lost, and you've taken away that certainty of equality not just from the people who want to buy alternate sails, but from every person who sails the class. This is, of course, why class associations have votes on rule changes.

Edited by JimC - 18 Apr 17 at 11:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 9:36am
Maybe it would be an option then to allow pattern sails - but only PROVIDED they are individually measured and the sail producer is not allowed to add any sort of class logo on them until a royalty fee is paid (and maybe prove it by fixing a 'use-once' button to the sail).  The royalty fee is paid to the class design rights holders with a proportion of this then directly going to the CLASS ASSOCIATIONS to support and promote the class and class racing.

The gripe about 'knock-off' sails is that most (all?) of the self-styled 'Robin Hoods' do not currently contribute one iota to the recurring periodic costs of tooling replacement for the class hulls etc that are completely borne by the hull builder today OR pay a brass farthing to the promotion of the target class or its racing organisation.   They freeload off the investment and expenditure of others who do take risk and trade on the goodwill generated by others... should we seek to change this or simply carry on as now ? 

Now I'm sure quite a few reasonable 'other' sailmakers out there might think this is an attractive and reasonable route for some of the SMOD classes to take where they are obviously excluded today  ....  

There would be many secondary implications but would they in principle switch from 'poachers' to becomming gamekeepers ?   I do have reason to enquire .....  Wink
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