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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser radial sail price
    Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:29am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I have succumbed to the power of argument on this forum, that there are indeed loads of Laser hulls lying in boat parks, and together with replica sails, they do represent a good value way to get people out racing in what has always been a fun boat.  In which case their is probably a good case for a club allowing a replica sail Lasers to have a PY, or even have class racing


Me too- I used to be 100% anti them for even club racing, but have to accept opinion presented here as well as local evidence of what good they can do to get boats out of the weeds. Obviously I could have been steadfast in my opinion, but when faced with this, changing my own opinion was the logical thing to do.
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 17 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Rupert

So, it is replica sails causing the increase in the Laser yardstick...

Think I need more convincing on that one.

I hadn't really thought of that one, but i would imagine that if you remove replica sails from the PY system you would also remove a large percentage of the poor results (Sailor, not equipment) from the mix.

I agree with David personally, a Laser with a replica sail is not a Laser. Clubs who don't separately in their NOR permit replica equipped Lasers to sail with the class and have a separate PY for replica equipped Lasers (which may happen to be the same as the normal PY) leave themselves wide open to a problem if someone takes umbrage with unmeasured equipment on another boat. 

You can't enforce class rules for one class and "allow" them to be flouted in another.
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Posts: 323 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:49pm
Isn't the first rule of py not to exclude any persons from racing due to not having a number PYS is a lovely inclusive organisation for all dinghy sailer.

How many boats have changed names.when design rights were sold yet retained there orginal PY.
I can think of 3 versions at least of the original blaze sail by sobstad Hyde and now north's all class legal because the rules were changed. But they all contribute to py. Guess the man in power can chnage sail makers to suit I guess
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by JimC

Hark, is this Mr 'only fleet racing can be taken seriously' suggesting that folk who try and maintain the integrity of their class' fleet racing are somehow unsporting? The irony is strong with this one...

Think that my comments have been misconstrued, I have previously posted that it would seem that a Laser is only a Laser class dinghy if it has manufacturer supplied sails; it is up to the club to define its policy on this in the NOR's, presumably a club can permit Laser hulls sailing with non manufacturer supplied sails and top masts if it wishes, just that they are not Lasers.

My point was that unless a club builds this into their NOR, there is the possibility of discontent between Laser owners who have forked out for genuine sails and those who have not.

I have succumbed to the power of argument on this forum, that there are indeed loads of Laser hulls lying in boat parks, and together with replica sails, they do represent a good value way to get people out racing in what has always been a fun boat.  In which case their is probably a good case for a club allowing a replica sail Lasers to have a PY, or even have class racing.

I suspect that if the sail profile is no different, performance will not be different than the variations seen in other fleets with a single PY number, in the Solos there is a single PY number that covers sails of the same area, whether these are radial cut or crosscut.

Whilst I am very supportive of the concept of design rights, it does seem that Laser's sail pricing does not do much to advance the sport at grass roots level, though I guess their logic is based on the "man maths" idea that you can trade up to a new boat for the price of a sail ... by charging a high price for said sail, resulting in increased boat sales.

I hope that man maths is not misconstrued as a politically incorrect phrase in this instance.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:42pm
So, it is replica sails causing the increase in the Laser yardstick...

Think I need more convincing on that one.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:41pm
Hark, is this Mr 'only fleet racing can be taken seriously' suggesting that folk who try and maintain the integrity of their class' fleet racing are somehow unsporting? The irony is strong with this one...
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 10:18pm
Always the possibility of another competitor protesting a non-legal boat if it is sailing with replica sails, they would win the protest, unless provision in the NOR, however might lose a few friends.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 8:10pm
I think the RYA ought to be glad of the returns, replica or otherwise! Hardly an elephant in the room, rather a field mouse outside your tent in a campsite ...

Edited by turnturtle - 17 Apr 17 at 8:10pm
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 8:09pm
Does the RYA have a policy on 'class' submissions from clubs that include 'pattern' or so called 'training' sails  for PN purposes?   When you have a system that supposes an accuracy of  approximately 1/1000 will these assumed 'slower' non-class sails lead to an obvious underestimation of  true class speed and handicap ?  .. or quite possibly vice versa ?    

Another elephant stumbling around in the PN living room .....   Wink

Edited by Cirrus - 17 Apr 17 at 8:09pm
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 17 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Thus replica Blaze sails can't carry the 'Blaze' logo but, as long as they don't there's nowt the CA or builder can do to stop another sailmaker making them.

But when they do .. even if the typeface is 'different' or 'modified' they simply invite legal action as some may well find out before too long  !!    You can put what you like up your mast but not with someone else's logo or name on it....   A different point but it is also interesting that some clubs submit PN returns to the RYA that include pattern sail users as being 'in class' because locally they have decided to allow them to race within a class... A 'faster' or 'slower' substitute training sail could possibly lead to an inaccurate PN ... Discuss ! 

My point exactly, as long as it doesn't have somebody else's copyrighted name or design or trademarked logo you can make, sell, and use it with impunity. I'm not arguing the morality of it though.

I do agree that clubs accepting replica sails and then submitting PY returns for them might distort the numbers but, most would agree that replica/training sails are usually a less carefully constructed copy of the 'real thing' so the 'serious' sailors of the boat would benefit from a slightly higher number (and add that even if the replica sails are faster the people buying them are unlikely to be the best sailing the boat).

I agree with SMODs (and other One Designs) not allowing non-class legal sails at open meetings and championship events (it would make a nonsense of the 'One Design' ethic) but to try to discourage occasional club racers or non-racers having access to cheaper sails seems a bit counter productive.
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