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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New class PY numbers?
    Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:02pm
How does a new class get a PN? Obviously once enough boats are raced to show up in the returns a number will be forthcoming but who decides what number to give a boat when they first show it at the dinghy show/race it at a handicap event?

I have a Spice, as far as I'm aware the last number recorded is the same as the number suggested at launch, presumably as there were enough returns for Spice to appear in the EN list but not enough to precipitate a change or promotion to the main list. Who decided that 930 was the right number for the Spice to start is racing career with?

I have a suspicion that in some cases a lower than realistic number is chosen to make the boat look faster than it actually is. Alternatively an entry into a couple of high profile handicap events combined with an artificially high number might lead to a couple of publicity generating wins. Who knows ;)


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 17 Feb 17 at 12:13pm
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MattK View Drop Down
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http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY-Using%20the%20scheme.pdf

Experimental List
Portsmouth Numbers published by the RYA based on a new design or development class with a relatively low amount of return data. These numbers are less likely to be suitable for all clubs than the RYA list however may give an appropriate starting point for boats to get onto a club list.

Trial Number
A number allocated by a club for a new class/ configuration that is yet to establish itself within the club. This number is to be periodically reviewed by the club until any number adjustment calculations give a stable number, at which point the trial number can join the club list. 
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:17pm
Yup, read all that but who decides what the Trial Number should be?

Spice will never have a 'real' (i.e. garnered from sufficient race results) number as there are very few (less than half a dozen I'd guess) racing infrequently at clubs that file returns so it's just a matter of persuading the race committee at my clubs that 950 is more realistic  Embarrassed
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Posts: 221 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MattK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:30pm
Experimental List - published by the RYA

Trial Number - allocated by a club
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Yup, read all that but who decides what the Trial Number should be?

 In the brave new world, iGRF will decide based on whatever over-simplistic parameters his mood dictates at the time. With new designs his affection for the design, designer and builder will be pivotal. LOL   Wink

But the system will be far fairer than the current conspiracy against him perpetrated by the RYA PN system. Confused

Leg-pulling aside, It does seem logical to me that, if an established class has a material rule-change (weight reduction, larger sails for instance) it should lose the established number as soon as the change is made and a revised (lower) Experimental Number issued in anticipation, rather than letting them bandit for a year or more until the results catch-up with them
 


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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 12:42pm
When I got my D-Zero there was no data on it at all. The builder would not be drawn on a potential PY (some might say rightly so).

The way to start a trial number would be to find a boat of broadly similar spec and use that as a base point. I suggested to my club we use the Rooster 8.1 as a start point. Similar sail area, similar type of boat and a boat they could measure my own performance against as I previously sailed one.

It worked pretty well on the whole. We did agree to drop to the GL PY after a while as people said we were winning too much (NB I felt my performance was on a par with my Laser/8.1 sailing). This made no difference.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 1:16pm
Or you could fashion a formula based on boat length, weight, sail size, displacement, etc

Open to anyone to plug in their figures and it spits out a number. OK so the number won't necessarily be anymore accurate than what happens now, but it would at least be the same for everyone which is not what has happened over the years. It would also not be open to Gerrymandering by outfits like Sailjuice to suit their own agenda which then in turn effects the entire system.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 2:21pm
If the spice with two trapezes isn't 20 points faster than a 400 with no trapezes, there is something badly wrong. The Buzz sails well above its PY as soon as the wire becomes useful, I've seen good club sailors get them well up amongh the 400's.

Of course if you are sailing on water where it's not suited, you will be lucky to sail to the PY, but the national average PY can't be expected to account for people like me who take 505's to narrow rivers etc.
There are many failures that the PY should be called to account over, the blind alley of the 90s Topper range is not IMHO one of them.
Just enjoy it on the water and find your own way of keeping track of improving?
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

If the spice with two trapezes isn't 20 points faster than a 400 with no trapezes, there is something badly wrong. The Buzz sails well above its PY as soon as the wire becomes useful, I've seen good club sailors get them well up amongh the 400's.

It definitely isn't with me sailing it  Embarrassed but I take your point. Although it is very similar spec to a 400 (twin strings excepted) mine is about 25kg heavier than a 400 and nearly a foot shorter (as far as I can tell waterline length makes more difference than any other single factor on otherwise loosely similar boats)

Of course if you are sailing on water where it's not suited, you will be lucky to sail to the PY, but the national average PY can't be expected to account for people like me who take 505's to narrow rivers etc.

Absolutely

There are many failures that the PY should be called to account over, the blind alley of the 90s Topper range is not IMHO one of them.

Again absolutely, the other examples, ISO and Buzz were sufficiently successful to achieve critical mass unlike the Spice (and to a lesser extent the Boss). Iso is a couple of feet longer, supposedly 15kg heavier, has a slightly smaller rig and only one wire but, according to the PY list is 7 points faster than Spice (and 20 points faster than a 400). That WL effect again?

Just enjoy it on the water and find your own way of keeping track of improving?

And yet again, absolutely. This will be my 10th season in the Spice and I haven't regretted buying it for a second (and I now have the Blaze for slightly more serious racing).
 




Edited by Sam.Spoons - 17 Feb 17 at 3:15pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 17 at 4:22pm
The 400 is a bit longer, but the bow is probably raked more? So LWL is not hugely different.
The alleged 85kg of the 400 is bare hull. On the water I suspect heavier than some Merlins.
The claimed weight of the Spice is the same.
LWL does not seem to affect I14's too badly, their upwind sail area is only another 2 or 3 sqm.
LWL is good at low speed for sure. But you need a narrow waterline and and a couple of decades of Merlin knowledge to get the best out of it.
At higher speeds you don't want a round bilge at the blunt end.
There are certain hull shapes that had to be tried in the last 25 years, just to prove they really were a bad idea.

I don't know why you started this thread, with a reference to a dead class like the Spice.
Do you have a CA? Classs rules? Any actual data?
 You are only ever going to get a number dredged out of the past or some personal performance based nonsense like the cruisers have for NHC.
Either stick a GPS on it and take it out in a proper breeze and come back with pictures of 20 knots, or we'll sort out a suburban roundabout and some geraniums.
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