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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Foiling 101
    Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 9:18am
How many yoof have a spare 15k?

If "slow" boats are so bad why do you sail one? Yes, I know the Osprey is fairly quick for a dinghy and it's a lovely boat, but it's not all that fast by today's standards. If speed is so critical why didn't you buy a kitefoiler, A Class, Moth or Flying Phantom instead?  If speed isn't critical for you, why should it be critical for others?

Whether the youf of today are particularly interested in going fast is another matter.  Some of us who are getting on have had plenty of recent contact with kids or young adults, such as our own ones. In my case we also regularly end up providing short-term accommodation for my wife's postgrad students, as well as having run a junior and youth class that included yoof who have gone on to do windsurfer Youth Worlds and win 29er championships and a 49erFX Olympic trials. Many other people have similar experience, and there are also academic studies on what drives kids to do sports or turns them off.

If we take that sort of information, then it seems that the common belief that most youf want bleeding-edge speed is incorrect. Furthermore, some studies found that the No 1 turnoff for them is being made to look foolish or incompetent. Crashing a high-performance boat is not an attractive look for many youf.

I've just had a great championship weekend racing with my wife in our sub-700 PY boat, so I'm not knocking fast boats at all. The issues are that there is not actually evidence that they attract kids and that excessive and one-eyed promotion of them may hurt the sport. And no one here is saying there is no place for the 101, are they?

By the way, the Fireball that inspired you to get into sailing was not the fastest thing on the water in its day by a long shot. If you were inspired by a boat that wasn't leading edge, why can't others be inspired by boats that are not leading edge?  




Edited by Chris 249 - 05 Dec 16 at 11:03am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 10:34am
The Osprey is probably one of the real life fastest dinghies on our small lake across the wind range, where cats are banned, fast assys run out of room and foilers would hit weed and crash. Where and when Pete grew up is rather different. Suspect a C class cat would have been the fastest thing, but not many existed!
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Posts: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeteM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 11:37am
We were lucky on Guernsey in the mid '60's - we had an FD, Sheerwater Cats, Ospreys, Jollyboat, F'balls and a Tornado cat that turned up for a while! At the time these were a pretty good bunch of 'fast boats.  As a personal preference, I went around the dinghy park and begged a ride on the fastest thing I could (that's just the way I am - apologies!)  - so sailed all of those boats, if the 49'er had been around I'd have  begged a ride on that, and maybe never got off it!  In the past I've also chosen to sail in a Trio, not necessarily fast, but still challenging for a crew with the kite.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 11:47am
Where I was, the Fireball was the fastest fleet racing.
As well as having a reasonably fast PY, it was a boat that liked strong winds so had a well deserved rep for high speed sailing in a bit of weather. Lesser mortals watched the fireballs from the warmth of the clubhouse on very windy days.
It was relatively accessible, older ones were avaialble for sensible money.
It also had a lot of strong characters in the fleet.
When I moved to the sea, 505's were favoured.
The 'ball is still pretty healthy as a circuit class.
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Originally posted by Chris 249

One of the most interesting bits of information to come out of the last round of foiler press release mania was that the Flying Phantom has only sold 100 boats in a year or two (or three??) which once again shows that foiling has completely failed to grab the popular market.

more to do with economic uncertainty, I would have thought. + The Moths have dragged most foil desired sailors toward them. High performance sailing basically cannibalises it's market to achieve class take up. ++ a foiling Cat is somehow TEN times more scary when it goes wrong (to me anyway) than a Moth.

Agree with all that, but the hypesters were implying  that there would be plenty of sailors willing to buy hundreds of foiling cats and thousands of foiling Moths despite the economic uncertainty, which is the sort of thing that any reasonable and sober analysis of the future of the sport would factor in.

The concept that the high performance classes basically cannibalise each other does seem to apply, which is why one would think that they would be better off supporting and promoting the other classes to increase the overall size of the sport and therefore the number of people who may move to high performance sailing. It makes the current fad of some high-po marketers denigrating the mass-market classes look even sillier.

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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 6:39pm
Foiling 101: very interesting, appears to fulfil it's brief so far as function is concerned. Curious about the reacher kite in serious apparent wind but I'm not clued up enough on power vs drag................... Looks like it could be a time consuming 'mare to sort out if you stuffed it in. What sort of seas can this type of thing handle and what is the sensation like?
Would I want one? Not likely. Would I want a go? Maybe a quick spin. Why so lukewarm? I don't like the look, far to bitty. Thinking of an F1 car from the 60s, undoubtedly the 2016 cars have far superior aero's but man what a dogs dinner on that front wing!
There has been a lot of talk about speed, to my mind numbers only tell half the story when it comes to sailing. An Osprey thundering down a three sail reach in waves would feel ballistic compared to a Moth going twice the speed on flat water.
Then there's the is it bad or good for sailing debate. Well, seems to me to you have to decide what you are going to argue about first. For those who sail to race it is probably irrelevant, for those who race to sail maybe not so.
BTW. the wand on the foil at least means you can launch with the foil raised but that is still a tidy bit of expensive tackle underwater with no option to break back if you mess up or have an invisible encounter.  


  
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 7:45pm
And another thing, wearing a grumpy old man hat  Wink

If we take that sort of information, then it seems that the common belief that most youf want bleeding-edge speed is incorrect. Furthermore, some studies found that the No 1 turnoff for them is being made to look foolish or incompetent. Crashing a high-performance boat is not an attractive look for many youf.

That fear is a bigger problem and as much for society as sailing. Precious feelings will not get us far, the only people who will rarely feel foolish or incompetent are those who never do anything. Life will probably make us all feel that way at some point, may as well get over it early with a soft landing on water.

I spent over twenty years from a youngster to an adult  competing on horses, feeling really stupid and incompetent has made me the bitter and twisted fool I am today.  Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 ...the Flying Phantom has only sold 100 boats in a year or two (or three??) which once again shows that foiling has completely failed to grab the popular market.


That's the problem.  100 boats globally may not set the world on fire, but the boat builder will have made a decent return on investment and so is motivated to produce more classes. And who can blame him?  Meanwhile, the sport fragments and suffers.  
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 11:16pm
Or, 100 people own a kickass boat which they love sailing.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 16 at 11:46pm
I'm not sure it qualifies as 'kickass' but I like mine. Topper sold (I think) 65 Spice's in around 4 years, sadly not enough to convince the accountants. Some went to sailing centres and quite a few are almost certainly languishing in boat parks. Some, (two or three to my knowledge) have been broken up. There aren't many sailing now but, while it never found it's niche it has a unique set of characteristics that suit me. The 101 could be a similar proposition if it is easy to sail (the Spice is for a twin wire assy) feels fast enough to be rewarding (like the Spice), and is not fragile (in the case of the Spice brick outhouse springs to mind, it's main failing TBH). And F101 is only around twice the price of a Topper Spice in 1996.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 05 Dec 16 at 11:49pm
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