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Noah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:31pm
The fact is Graeme, that men and women are fundamentally different. Would you expect both genders to compete in sports where equipment is minimal (e.g. pick any track and field event)? So finding one boat that can be sailed equally well by either / both is a big ask. Mixed two-person is a different proposition entirely and there's no reason I can see why it shouldn't be a practical option.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:19pm
So I ask a simple question, what have we got that suits both sexes as a single hander and all you can give me is 9 pages of should we shouldn't we be in the Olympics, kind of make my point as to why we're all pretty much f**ked when nobody can design a simple single hander that both men and women can compete together on relatively equal terms, fat b**tards excepted of course.
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:11pm
Makes sense to me Winging It, although my lifetime experience of sailing and racing is much more modest than yours. 
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

[QUOTE=Fatboi]Well, for one it could come because national bodies seeking more cash would be driven to increase membership numbers and therefore increase membership dues, rather than being driven to increase gold medal numbers.

At least here, I wonder how much potential there is to increase membership. RYA membership is just over 100,000, compared to 125,000 for British Cycling. 
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 1:08pm
Our kids summer camp this year happened to coincide with the sailing events in Rio.  When I asked the 22 kids on the camp to name any of the classes being sailed at the Olympics they couldn't, nor could they name any of the sailors.  These children were aged between 8 and 14 and are keen, regular sailors, both cruising and racing.  The Olympics mean nothing to them.  The only 'famous' sallow they could name was Ben Ainslie.  Admittedly further up the age range they might have been able to name a couple of Olympic classes, but I have also asked the same question on a Dinghy Instructor course and have yet to achieve a 'full house' of Olympic classes.  I'm lucky to get even one Paralympic class.

I actually think the Olympics are largely unrecognised by, and irrelevant to, the grass roots sailor.  Admittedly they may turn out of their club arranges an appearance by an Olympian, but I'd be willing to bet Jessica Ennis would attract better numbers than say Hannah Mills, even in a sailing club.

The kids in most clubs are far more impressed by the achievement of 'local heroes'; their near peers who get into squads, the older sailors who do well at opens, the traveling sailors who come home with exciting tales of Garda and the like.  These are the ones who inspire and impress because their achievements are attainable, whereas the Olympics are just a dream for the few.  Even better when the local heroes get in the mix and help with instruction and coaching.

I don't think sailing should be in the Olympics.  It is far too expensive for most countries to host, too many developing countries cannot hope to compete, Olympic campaigns are too expensive to run.  In short it is exclusive and far from the ideal of sport for all with which some of us grew up.
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 12:13pm
Chris

Fully recognise you can find justifications for the circus ... of course there will always be arguments for as well.  However the Olympics for sailing does need to be questioned at many levels.  If you cannot imagine a world without sailing being there most would have no issue with that at all.  I'm questioning the high level of selective focus by our 'representatives' maybe to the detriment of focus on other critical areas.   If it stays fine but lets NOT go down the route of altering the sport just to provide that quarter an hour of dodgy TV coverage every 4 years that non-sailors barely understand or follow !  ... or pretend it is representative of sailing competition in the fullest sense.  Is it all worth it  and are we not capable of recognising or developing other global sailing championships as equel or superior ?   Tennis/Golf for example are there but it can hardly be argued that the circus is the pinnacle of those sports ... is there not a parallel somewhere in there ?




Edited by Cirrus - 19 Oct 16 at 4:13pm
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 11:27am
How is it harming grass routes!?!?!? Spending money on youth sailing, providing coaching, providing events, providing role models, the WYA subsidising boats!! 
With an emphasis on medals from Sport England, do you think those funding pots will be at the same level? 

The amount of youth and junior sailors is huge, lots have aims for the Olympics but the amount that dont is enormous! There are so many kids sailing because they love the sport and also because they want to do well and love to compete.

In my opinion the reason for a drop out is not because 'they havent made it', but because from when you go to uni through to your 30's you dont have any money for sailing!! The amount of people that go team racing or hop on a yacht down in the solent because it is cheaper is huge!!
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Fatboi

And where would the money for this come from?

Well, for one it could come because national bodies seeking more cash would be driven to increase membership numbers and therefore increase membership dues, rather than being driven to increase gold medal numbers.

Secondly, if the money currently being spent is not enhancing grass-roots sailing and may be actually harming it (as many feel) then should the average sailor care if it stops coming in?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Cirrus

.... as noted earlier there seems to be no reason to think that Olympic dinghy ailing is lagging and the rest of the sport "has moved on"

At the very least hightly debatable .... and if 'outside' it would not matter at all.  Those disciplines that were appealing, older or newer, would prevail and prosper - not because some old crusties in power supported a particular model cos 'that is what they used when they were young themselves'.  Tell me how many times did the Star need the wooden stake through the heart before it was 'moved on' ?  .....and we can anticipate similar lobbying and politics with the Finn emerging in the future.   World championships simply  don't have to be 'second best' to the 5 ring circus ... unless 'they' make it thus and tell the rest of us plebs it surely is ....

It'd be interesting to get some details about the way it is highly debatable. However that means talking in terms of fact, rather than rhetoric.

The Olympic classes do NOT appear to be older than the popular non-Olympic classes in terms of design age, so in what other way has dinghy sailing "moved on"?  If we take the Olympic and junior classes out, the design dates of the top-selling international classes look like this, from the top in order of popularity expressed in current sales.

1950s
1969 (approx sales) CAT
2010s
1990s  (development)  CAT
1930s (development)
1960s (development, CAT)
1930s
2010s (CAT)
2000s (CAT)
2000s? (CAT)
1980s (development, small yacht)
1950s
1950s
1930s
1950s

So if we take "where the sport is heading" to mean what is selling, we see lots of cats, lots of 1950s and 1930s designs, and two "modern" dinghies. That distorts the picture towards new classes where there are few second-hand boats. If we look at that and actual participation numbers, however, we still see that the sport is heading pretty much along the same way as the Olympic classes, albeit with vast over-representation of skiffs, dinghies and beach cats, and an under-representation of offshore boats.

So if we take "where the sport is heading" as being where the big fleets are, it is in classes that are no newer than the Olympic classes. If we take "where the sport is heading" as being what is selling, we see that it's heading towards classes that are no newer than the Olympic classes. So by what objective criteria can we determine "where the sport is heading"??

To declare my bias; the only class on that list I own is the newest development class of the whole bunch, which is also the only one of the new non-squad classes that has got through the initial growth spurt and also the only one with true international spread. I also have a bunch of other craft, across much of the spectrum of class age and type. So I have few reasons to be biased.

Looking at the objective data, and after probably doing more historical research into the long term development of dinghy sailing than anyone else, it would appear that "where the sport is heading" is into an area where classic designs are appreciated and form the backbone of the sport. Certainly numerical data leads one to believe that the sport is heading AWAY from abandoning old classes.

Seen in that light, the Olympic classes are going the way the sport is headed. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Oct 16 at 10:54am
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Fatboi

And where would the money for this come from?

In the run up to and immediately after 2012 there was money around in various sports governing bodies pots that was specifically to increase participation at grass roots level.

My local club got some coaching out of it and a subsidised instructors course (and may have got more that i am unaware of).

The money came from central govt and Lottery, it is no longer available as it was. Clubs can still apply for grants from Sport England and various other bodies though.
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