Single handling both sexes?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12549
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 4:46am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Single handling both sexes?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Single handling both sexes?
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 4:06pm
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Excellent article about the Contender from David Henshall and in it he touches on the Olympics, the possible demise of the Finn and the need to cater for both sexes.
So, what do we have that covers that requirement at performance level? Certainly not the Contender, could an ample bosomed female get under that boom? 
But seriously what could it be? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 5:06pm
| Musto Skiff |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 5:19pm
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We don't, at least not with a trapeze that's being sailed in any numbers. How big is the market for a womens performance SHer anyway?
Right, at risk of getting my nose broken here are some generalisations: 1.Both genders compete in 'tactical' SHers for tactical racing. 2.Both genders compete in performance DHers because of the team element? 3.Some choose performance SHers not for the tactical element but for the gung ho aspect and they don't play well with other people. How many women would fall into generalisation 3? I'm sure there are women sailing foiling Moths but I can't recall seeing any, apologies to those that are, and I'm not saying that foiling Moths are not tactical. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 5:34pm
| Open 60? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 6:15pm
| It would have to be a boat that has an optimum weight range within which both male and female athletes typically fall and one where brute strength is not required simply to be competitive. There is, I'd guess, an overlap between lighter men and heavier women athletes, probably in the 65-75kg region so it has to be a boat where sailors outside that range are at a disadvantage. So that would be a L@ser Radial or a Europe then....... |
Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 6:41pm
| K1 |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 6:51pm
I read the title and thought I was on a different type of website. 
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 8:24pm
| Brings a whole new meaning to "one hand for the boat, and one for yourself"! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 8:28pm
http://lightskiff.de/light-skiff-mainmenu-27.html" rel="nofollow - This maybe The Mps is a bit of a handful over 12 knots ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 8:48pm
| We are talking about an Olympic class....... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Oct 16 at 10:59pm
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Any performance boat will be a handful. Isn't that the point? If you want easy speed, drive a car or sail a cat. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 10:18am
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Surely. Two separate questions. A non gender specific (performance?) single hander and a boat that fulfils Olympic requirements for worldwide accessibility are not easily compatible. Clear requirements are needed before you can identify the tool for the task. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 10:24am
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Well the clear requirements are the possibility of performance across a wider weight range than that Finn Lard bucket. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 11:11am
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It just get muddier, performance as a word means very little without measurements. Could go down the K1-ish route of predominately displacement performance OR Weight equalisation systems with racks and lead on a planing hull. I sort of like the Moth as a unisex boat but probably to expensive/esoteric to meet world sailing requirements. Perhaps not up to weight carrying but in any case really I can't see the weight argument; people simply chose their event to suit their physique, after all you don't see many 100kg marathon runners.
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 11:20am
+1
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 12:32pm
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Many sports manage absolutely fine without the 'Olympic' thing hanging round their necks .... Should the 5 ring circus include sports 'as they are' or change and distort sports to suit the 'hoped-for' income streams available to the 'organisers' and their bureaucratic minions via media and mass coverage. Trying to present dinghy sailing as a possibly TV friendly sport to the arm-chair masses means changing the sport in many ways so that it is increasingly only partially representative of the greater part of the sport that is out there ... and this is still obviously failing badly. Discuss ! |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 12:53pm
| The Olympics used to be about amateur sport, participation for the sake of it. It's all been downhill since..... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 1:31pm
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Too many ways round the amateur thing, first with state sponsorship, then with American colleges and finally with companies. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 1:42pm
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It would nice to see the possibility of some big waves on the course. Foiling Moths generally don't do that. Why focus solely on single handers. I always thought the 470 would benefit from being mixed. Considering the possibility of fewer sailing events in the future, it would fit quite well. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 3:37pm
True but that has only been a problem since the 'win at all costs' attitude became prevalent (admittedly quite a few years ago.....).
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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 4:48pm
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470 mixed, 49er mixed, foiling nacra 17 mixed, moths for both on separate courses, then vo65s with 50/50 split crews. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 5:50pm
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I'd agree 470 mixed and nacra mixed, but there needs to be unmixed as well. 49er seems ok for that. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 7:21pm
and I suspect the result of the question may be achieved with a new class following a trials process what about the farr 3.7 ? or one of the penultimate / lowrider Int Moths? but as a open One design and development class the political angle is something that would need to be considered ... As I guess the IOC would prefer a SMOD / strict OD with local builders and a an arrangement to provide boats for the actual olympics themselvs ... |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 15 Oct 16 at 7:29pm
how many of the WarPac atheletes were nominally military personnel ? Quite a few of the UKs past track and field Olympians were officially Military PTIs (Holmes, Akabusi ) and closer to home without the attitude of the RN the 'ferreting' world would be rather different ... http://www.armysportcontrolboard.org/army_elite/army_elite_sport_launch.html |
Posted By: Poole Pirate
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 12:51pm
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Over time I personally have felt that the winning of National Championships or a Euro or Worlds title seems so much more an amateur win. I see the winning by a Joe Blogs who has a full or part time job more akin to my kind of club sailing, Yes there are the professionals who turn up to win for whoever they work for but on the whole there are lots of classes who do have proper amateur champions. This is something I feel the also runs in the young squad systems need to think of when they do not make the top, or maybe helped to see that there is as much achievement in winning at a non Olympic championship and so their sailing life has not ended just yet! To be a club champion is a great thing to be, to win an open meeting in your class is also great, lets celebrate these wins as much as possible so its elevated to a much greater achievement than I feel it is at the moment.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 2:50pm
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We don't need a 'women's performance single hander', we just need a decent performance single hander for those who are too short and/or light for the Musto, D one, contender etc. It's doesn't need to be based on gender, just body type. Boat builders are starting to look in the right direction; the D one has a small rig, the D zero has the blue rig, he aero has a choice of rigs. But part of the problem is that anything with a trap and/or kite requires regular sailing to keep on top of the skill set. Not many of us, male or female, have the lifestyle that allows us to put in the time on the water needed to make sailing performance boats fun rather than a capsize fest. Obviously those with Olympic aspirations will make the time to get the training done, but as soon as you limit work time you limit income., which of course you need to keep up with demand for new sails, the latest rig etc. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 6:19pm
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Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 6:22pm
| I am fed up with saying it and you are all fed up with me saying it...Byte C2. Ladies are voting with their feet and half the fleet are ladies. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 6:52pm
Nice one, makes sense to me. Winging It.  Before taking up sailing I wasted most of my youth and lots of my earnings up to my forties on competing with horses. There is little or no division between the sexes in that field and it appears to work perfectly well with people playing to their strengths with choice of horse types, temperaments and sizes. To my mind this would be a healthy direction to take for sailing. Oh, and of course, doubtless somebody will say "yes but don't you simply sit on horse and the animal does all the work". All I will say to counter would be, try both and before you judge.
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Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 8:03pm
Byte C2..yes fed up. 
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Posted By: realnutter
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 8:36pm
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Is it time for the return of the sliding seat? Weight equalisation is simply a matter of limiting how far it slides.... *Ducks behind parapet* |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 16 Oct 16 at 9:51pm
Well, since sailing would be thrown out of the Games with that mix, we can have anything we want!  When it comes to selecting (or retaining) sports, the IOC Olympic Programme Commission has far more criteria that refer to popularity and universality than to spectator appeal and other issues. Sailing's lack of popularity and medals in Africa and Asia are major problems for the sport. Is there a single active group of 49ers, foiling cats, foiling Moths or canting keel big boats anywhere in either of those two continents? Even with the "spectacular" spinnaker-carrying cats, 49ers, match racing, medal races and shortboards sailing hasn't actually attracted decent ratings. We've been told about six times now that a move to more spectacular classes would get people watching. It hasn't worked. Why should we try it a seventh and eighth time? ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 1:46pm
The Finn is dead, long live the MPS
Don't see the point of having mens/womens 470 either, combine together to free up another space and enable a keelboat back into the Olympic regatta crazy not to have one. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 1:49pm
IMO the demise of a keelboat class was a major error in getting African and Asian teams more competitive. Yes the boats cost a lot to buy but after that initial purchase, the costs would be limited to sails and rigging. I suspect most of the current options involve purchases of at least two boats if not 3 or more during the cycle and many, many sail and rig changes. The fact a keelboat would also be crewed by 2+ people would also enable club-together funding efforts to get more campaigns up and running. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 4:58pm
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They should allow 2 competitors per country, one man and one woman, in any class they like, be it two single-handers or one two person and then run it on a handicap system, winner takes all. Sorted. And grf can formulate the handicap system ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 6:20pm
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..... Sorted. And grf can formulate the handicap system 'World Sailing' etc or whatever they call themselves this week would not want to miss out on that sort of innovative idea - pretty sure they would be thinking along similar lines to him anyway..... as long as there was a few $ and TV potential involved mind you ......  And do bring back the Star ... and the Firefly while you are at it.... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 7:09pm
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Aero, weight banded, 5 and 7 for women, 7 and 9 for men. Mixed doublehander. And that is it. Kites can go in with surfing, as can windsurfing, doing things other than pretending to be dinghies. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 7:47pm
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I rather think it's premature to be saying the Finn is out of the games. From what I understand, there are no plans to lose any of the current classes for 2020, but more likely is a change of formats, with a possible new class being introduced.
If anyone wants to look back, I posted similar a while back in another thread... ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 7:49pm
| The classes are largely irrelevant. It is the events that need shaking up. Watching 10 different fleet race series is like all cycling being the team pursuit but on bikes with different handlebars. |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 8:07pm
| And back in the real world, which events are going to be bumped/merged to make room for 2 kite medals? |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 10:22pm
| Kites - freestyle, windsurfing - slalom and waves, dinghies - course racing.... singlehanded men and women (Aero sounds as good a suggestion as any) double traditional (470 or bring back the FD?) skiff (49er and 49erfx) cat (mixed Nacra seems as good as any) and a three handed keelboat. Proper courses, it doesn't matter what you do you are not going toy engage the general public but that shouldn't be a primary driver, the Olympics should be about individual endeavour and not corporate moneymaking. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 10:28pm
so naďve ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 10:28pm
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Individual endeavour not corporate money making. Sadly, the athletes (on the whole) are the only ones who remember that. Even ex athletes (Seb Coe, Jacques Rogge) seem to forget. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 10:29pm
Golf and tennis if there is any justice in the world ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 10:53pm
I'm not sure at all that this is even on the agenda. As I said, WS are not looking to bump classes with the upcoming review, but instead make a simple adjustment to address the medal equality issue. The collective class associations have also done a cracking job of pointing out that it doesn't matter what classes are in use (for the TV watching public) if the coverage is as poor as was seen from Rio. I get the feeling that A) Kite surfing as a sport does not have the maturity of organisation yet to present itself properly and ii) if it does become included, why would it be at the expense of sailing medals? Surfing is included at Tokyo, but I don't believe it's been at the expense of a canoeing discipline, surely it's nearest related sport. Kite surfing doesn't have a 'sail', or a 'hull'. ------------- |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Oct 16 at 11:17pm
Not naive enough to believe it is still true but once upon a time......
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 4:42am
Did you not follow what nearly happened to RS:x? IOC and WS have been taken in by the IKA propaganda and see kiting as the cost effective sex appeal that will keep the youth excited. Only 8 women at this years worlds, but there's none so blind as those that won't see. You can keep telling yourself the Finn is safe if it helps you sleep, and the blazer brigade may well protect it, but someone is going to get f****d over. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 7:31am
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Surely the best most exciting boat to cover both female and male at the Olympics (and get people talking) has to iMoth. Going to anything else is just a step backward and boring to watch. As for a team boat - surely it should be a foiling cat of some description.
Olympic sailing has bad press and needs to engage with the wider public or it may as well be scrapped from the games. ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 7:45am
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Why do you even need two man boats at the Games? It's not Push the Boat Out day at the local club*. Cream rises and the best fleet racers will win, whether that's in a Musto, a Motha Finn or a 49er.
I would like to see relay racing, time trials, elimination races (like in the omnibus where the boat/bike at the back drops out at the end of the lap) and rule 42 abolished. * I know good crews are skilled athletes, but it is not a human right to go to the Olympics. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 7:52am
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...you need a team boat because not all sailing is done in dinghies either solo or duo! The Olympics needs to be representative to the other 60 odd percent of the sailing world which requires crews!!! ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 7:59am
Why? |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 8:03am
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Rhetorical question gbr940 - not having a go.
Either it can be foiling and sexy, etc, or it can be representative to world sailing - in which case the Sunfish and Snipe will be fighting their corner. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 8:27am
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So the iMoth ticks the boxes - strong global fleet with good turnout, sexy to look at on the shore, exciting on the water. It's also elite enough so we can all moan we either can't afford to buy in, moan we can't sail the damn thing as good as everyone else, and it's intricate enough that we mere mortals can't fix the damn thing without a watchmakers eye.
Plus it does have comedy factor which other boat's cannot claim in all that swimming to launch the damn thing. :D :D :D ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 8:34am
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How about to be truly representative we have handicap racing on a tiny gravel pit?
There'll always be someone who rocks up with an old International 14. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:10am
Would it help if it were called Spinnaker board riding? Sorry folks, it's accessible, low cost has better take up by girls and worldwide and it's about time Grafham Water permitted access and watched its membership double. Instead of doing what you lot did to windsurfing and scorned, banned, ignored and forced it to fend for itself, those clubs with bigger water would do well to embrace new pusuits. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:17am
| 8 girls at the worlds!!!! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:29am
Now that is funny....I know someone exactly like that (and their old i14 is stunning). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:33am
You don't see tandem racing in the Olympics. In fact why isn't there tandem racing? |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:39am
Don't get me wrong Grumpf, I think it has the potential to be a fantastic sport, but one in it's own right, not tagged on to sailing for convenience and at it's expense. As I said, surfing is going to be included, but is not classes as a canoe sport, BMX was included, I believe, not at the expense of track cycling (happy to be corrected). ------------- |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 11:17am
No, it doesn't tick the "One Design" box. However the Waszp does. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 11:23am
No. It would help if they didn't have long strings that are a menace to anyone in the vicinity and it would help if the hugely influential bird lobby hadn't already concluded they frighten the wildlife. It would help if the harbour masters in major coastal sailing areas hadn't already banned kite-surfing for those reasons. It would even help if more than a tiny number of sailors showed any interest in course racing kites. Parallels to windsurfing are false, none of those issues arose. |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 11:33am
| It would probably help if the IKA hadn't p!ssed of a lot of potential allies by trying to lie their way to Rio. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 12:04pm
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/\ What depressed me is how many people from ISAF fell for those lies. There were claims that kite racing was popular with the yoof, but IIRC the number of youth and juniors at the worlds was about half a dozen. There was also a claim of 200,000 spectators (I think) at the Sylt round of the kiting world cup - but the kiter's own press releases had claimed 50,000 less. This stuff really isn't hard to check up. It's sad that they even tried, and even sadder that it almost worked. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 12:12pm
Like board sailing, it will peak as a fashionable water sport and then drop back to a core. If clubs go too far chasing these fashions, they are left in the lurch when people move on. May be we should have jetski racing in the lympic circus, it's popular with chavs and easy to televise. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 1:06pm
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It bears repeating .... why all the fuss about the Olymic bit ? There is plenty of vibrant life outside and our sport hardly needs the 5-ring circus. If it served to attract more into sailing there might be a case but the 'coverage' is token, expensive, difficult and generally very poor. Is there any measurable and sustained impact on participation ? It hardly scratches the surface of competitive sailing in all its different forms and arguably artificially maintains a focus on a very small sample of sometimes over priced, atypical but politically well connected classes when the rest of the sailing world really has moved on ... in some instances by many decades. WF might well like the association for all sorts of reasons ... but does the circus (or even WF in its current form for that matter) really cut it ? |
Posted By: Poole Pirate
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 1:07pm
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How about a OD Int Moth for the Olympics, one for the girls with two rigs and one for the boys with two rigs, ( If needs be) Two rigs cover differing weights so the bigger Northern Hemisphere lards can compete with the lighter Southern Hemisphere people. It would also keep the speeds up in the racing around the world were the differing venues have differing average wind strengths,
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Posted By: Poole Pirate
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 1:17pm
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What I feel could make a difference to the profile of sailing is to find a way to get more coverage for class racing at ITS top level to start with. If more people could see how good and also relevant to Mr and Ms Average sailing can be we may see more interest in our sport. Outside sailing we all know what kinds of perception sailing is seen in, elitist, expensive ect ect. Show it for what it relay is more and people may get to see it in way they may enjoy themselves.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 1:17pm
Amazing boats, great class, but strong global fleet? About 12 boats at the North Americans; little or no organised racing in countries like France, NZ, Finland; 20-25 active boats in Japan, not many in Italy, 2 active boats in Denmark, about a dozen in South America, 20 in Switzerland. It's a strong fleet in Sydney and the south coast, but nowhere else. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 1:29pm
Finding measurable and sustained impact on participation from being in the Olympics is hard for any sport - which probably means it doesn't exist. The rest of the sailing world hasn't really moved on from the Olympic classes in terms of the age of the design, if that's what you meant. Look at the design age of the classes when you list North American titles, in order of participation. It goes something like; 1947, 1969, 1955, 1946, 1955, 1955, 1965, 1969, ?, 1938, 2000, 1948, 1968, 1998, 1935...... If you ran the numbers for Australia, Germany, NZ etc it won't look that much different. The numbers for the Uk would look different, but the UK is unique. In terms of boat type, if we changed Olympic classes to match what most racers now sail, then there'd be probably be a Beneteau 40 class, a Beneteau 30 class, no skiffs, no cats, and no trapeze dinghies. I think I actually ran the numbers once, and I think I found that the average age of the Olympic classes was actually much younger than the average age of the popular classes in the English-speaking countries, and the rest of the world is little different. After all, if we are going to dump Olympic disciplines because of their age, then the most popular and most-watched sport of all (running) will go first, followed by the second most popular and most-watched sport (swimming). ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 2:17pm
Which suggests that there is something 'right' about all those old designs that more modern designs can't improve on?
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Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 3:25pm
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Chris et al |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 3:53pm
it is in the paras though - for competitors with serious sight impairment - sighted front person and vision impaired person as stoker |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 9:46pm
Yep, the Olympics gets less inspirational with each passing occurrence........anyway, most of them have asthma (allegedly). Sport at the lower Sunday afternoon level is much more important IMO. Encouraging kids to kick around on a piece of scrap ground is much more beneficial to nation and individual. If they still kick a ball around the same scrap of ground when they're 40 then that's fantastic. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:44pm
And those of us that could make a difference fought tooth and nail to keep the damned RYA & IYRU/ISAF/World Sailing b'stards at bay, but they conned the kiting speed sailors into your corrupt world by refusing to recognise their world record breaking runs and the IKA was adopted and now we have battles three or four organisations vying for supremacy, riders struggling to understand who's in control and corruption everywhere. Typical sailing in other words. The sooner sailing is out of the Olympics the better imv. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:49pm
The IKA is a manufactured body foisted upon us by bloody sailors, we have no desire to be part of ISAF/World sailing, have every board have to pay $6 to have a label on it and the price of kiting increased, small manufacturers crippled and backroom deals involving large brown envelopes deciding who makes the kit we use. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 10:49pm
Oh yes, all your questions about why sailing is in the Games, and the effect of leaving, are very valid. In the long run it could be a good thing if sailing wasn't there. National bodies in some nations may lose their funding but if that means they have to earn it by catering for the grass roots that could actually be a good thing for the sport. Whether it's reasonable to assume some upgrading of kit is a complex question, isn't it? The other equipment-based disciplines often have comparatively little or no "upgrading" in terms of basic design and rules. To have an informed discussion we'd have to find some way of comparing and quantifying what "upgrading" is, how fast it occurs, and what happens to the sports that upgrade the fastest and the slowest. Every time I quantify the Olympic equipment-based sports, it seems that sailing has upgraded more than most over recent years, and also over the long term. It doesn't seem to have been a formula for success. However, as noted earlier there seems to be no reason to think that Olympic dinghy ailing is lagging and the rest of the sport "has moved on". ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 18 Oct 16 at 11:32pm
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.... as noted earlier there seems to be no reason to think that Olympic dinghy ailing is lagging and the rest of the sport "has moved on" At the very least hightly debatable .... and if 'outside' it would not matter at all. Those disciplines that were appealing, older or newer, would prevail and prosper - not because some old crusties in power supported a particular model cos 'that is what they used when they were young themselves'. Tell me how many times did the Star need the wooden stake through the heart before it was 'moved on' ? .....and we can anticipate similar lobbying and politics with the Finn emerging in the future. World championships simply don't have to be 'second best' to the 5 ring circus ... unless 'they' make it thus and tell the rest of us plebs it surely is .... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 12:13am
| I think the problem replacing the Star was that keelboat classes just don't seem to get global spread. There seem to be North American classes, European Classes, British Commonwealth classes, but nothing with genuine 5 continents distribution. So anything trying to replace the Star would have at least two continent's delegates saying "XYZ? Never heard of it. May as well keep the coffin in." |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 7:55am
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"Oh yes, all your questions about why sailing is in the Games, and the effect of leaving, are very valid. In the long run it could be a good thing if sailing wasn't there. National bodies in some nations may lose their funding but if that means they have to earn it by catering for the grass roots that could actually be a good thing for the sport." Probably not quite proper to extract a section from a post but
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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 9:04am
| And where would the money for this come from? |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:46am
In the run up to and immediately after 2012 there was money around in various sports governing bodies pots that was specifically to increase participation at grass roots level. My local club got some coaching out of it and a subsidised instructors course (and may have got more that i am unaware of). The money came from central govt and Lottery, it is no longer available as it was. Clubs can still apply for grants from Sport England and various other bodies though. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:46am
It'd be interesting to get some details about the way it is highly debatable. However that means talking in terms of fact, rather than rhetoric. The Olympic classes do NOT appear to be older than the popular non-Olympic classes in terms of design age, so in what other way has dinghy sailing "moved on"? If we take the Olympic and junior classes out, the design dates of the top-selling international classes look like this, from the top in order of popularity expressed in current sales. 1950s 1969 (approx sales) CAT 2010s 1990s (development) CAT 1930s (development) 1960s (development, CAT) 1930s 2010s (CAT) 2000s (CAT) 2000s? (CAT) 1980s (development, small yacht) 1950s 1950s 1930s 1950s So if we take "where the sport is heading" to mean what is selling, we see lots of cats, lots of 1950s and 1930s designs, and two "modern" dinghies. That distorts the picture towards new classes where there are few second-hand boats. If we look at that and actual participation numbers, however, we still see that the sport is heading pretty much along the same way as the Olympic classes, albeit with vast over-representation of skiffs, dinghies and beach cats, and an under-representation of offshore boats. So if we take "where the sport is heading" as being where the big fleets are, it is in classes that are no newer than the Olympic classes. If we take "where the sport is heading" as being what is selling, we see that it's heading towards classes that are no newer than the Olympic classes. So by what objective criteria can we determine "where the sport is heading"?? To declare my bias; the only class on that list I own is the newest development class of the whole bunch, which is also the only one of the new non-squad classes that has got through the initial growth spurt and also the only one with true international spread. I also have a bunch of other craft, across much of the spectrum of class age and type. So I have few reasons to be biased. Looking at the objective data, and after probably doing more historical research into the long term development of dinghy sailing than anyone else, it would appear that "where the sport is heading" is into an area where classic designs are appreciated and form the backbone of the sport. Certainly numerical data leads one to believe that the sport is heading AWAY from abandoning old classes. Seen in that light, the Olympic classes are going the way the sport is headed. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:52am
Well, for one it could come because national bodies seeking more cash would be driven to increase membership numbers and therefore increase membership dues, rather than being driven to increase gold medal numbers. Secondly, if the money currently being spent is not enhancing grass-roots sailing and may be actually harming it (as many feel) then should the average sailor care if it stops coming in? ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 11:27am
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How is it harming grass routes!?!?!? Spending money on youth sailing, providing coaching, providing events, providing role models, the WYA subsidising boats!! With an emphasis on medals from Sport England, do you think those funding pots will be at the same level? The amount of youth and junior sailors is huge, lots have aims for the Olympics but the amount that dont is enormous! There are so many kids sailing because they love the sport and also because they want to do well and love to compete. In my opinion the reason for a drop out is not because 'they havent made it', but because from when you go to uni through to your 30's you dont have any money for sailing!! The amount of people that go team racing or hop on a yacht down in the solent because it is cheaper is huge!! |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 12:13pm
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Chris Fully recognise you can find justifications for the circus ... of course there will always be arguments for as well. However the Olympics for sailing does need to be questioned at many levels. If you cannot imagine a world without sailing being there most would have no issue with that at all. I'm questioning the high level of selective focus by our 'representatives' maybe to the detriment of focus on other critical areas. If it stays fine but lets NOT go down the route of altering the sport just to provide that quarter an hour of dodgy TV coverage every 4 years that non-sailors barely understand or follow ! ... or pretend it is representative of sailing competition in the fullest sense. Is it all worth it and are we not capable of recognising or developing other global sailing championships as equel or superior ? Tennis/Golf for example are there but it can hardly be argued that the circus is the pinnacle of those sports ... is there not a parallel somewhere in there ? |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 1:08pm
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Our kids summer camp this year happened to coincide with the sailing events in Rio. When I asked the 22 kids on the camp to name any of the classes being sailed at the Olympics they couldn't, nor could they name any of the sailors. These children were aged between 8 and 14 and are keen, regular sailors, both cruising and racing. The Olympics mean nothing to them. The only 'famous' sallow they could name was Ben Ainslie. Admittedly further up the age range they might have been able to name a couple of Olympic classes, but I have also asked the same question on a Dinghy Instructor course and have yet to achieve a 'full house' of Olympic classes. I'm lucky to get even one Paralympic class. I actually think the Olympics are largely unrecognised by, and irrelevant to, the grass roots sailor. Admittedly they may turn out of their club arranges an appearance by an Olympian, but I'd be willing to bet Jessica Ennis would attract better numbers than say Hannah Mills, even in a sailing club. The kids in most clubs are far more impressed by the achievement of 'local heroes'; their near peers who get into squads, the older sailors who do well at opens, the traveling sailors who come home with exciting tales of Garda and the like. These are the ones who inspire and impress because their achievements are attainable, whereas the Olympics are just a dream for the few. Even better when the local heroes get in the mix and help with instruction and coaching. I don't think sailing should be in the Olympics. It is far too expensive for most countries to host, too many developing countries cannot hope to compete, Olympic campaigns are too expensive to run. In short it is exclusive and far from the ideal of sport for all with which some of us grew up. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 3:08pm
At least here, I wonder how much potential there is to increase membership. RYA membership is just over 100,000, compared to 125,000 for British Cycling.
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:11pm
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Makes sense to me Winging It, although my lifetime experience of sailing and racing is much more modest than yours. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:19pm
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So I ask a simple question, what have we got that suits both sexes as a single hander and all you can give me is 9 pages of should we shouldn't we be in the Olympics, kind of make my point as to why we're all pretty much f**ked when nobody can design a simple single hander that both men and women can compete together on relatively equal terms, fat b**tards excepted of course. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:31pm
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The fact is Graeme, that men and women are fundamentally different. Would you expect both genders to compete in sports where equipment is minimal (e.g. pick any track and field event)? So finding one boat that can be sailed equally well by either / both is a big ask. Mixed two-person is a different proposition entirely and there's no reason I can see why it shouldn't be a practical option. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 6:47pm
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Well, men and women are without doubt different in their physicality BUT there is also arguably a greater difference between individuals of the same gender. Is there really that much difference between fit athletic men and women of similar weight and height? Okay a small difference but in boats having a sensible righting moment relative to sail area the emphasis would move from brute strength towards more subtle skills.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 7:23pm
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> Is there really that much difference between fit athletic men and women of similar weight and height?
I can think of a good number of classes where exceptional women sailors will sometimes win, but I can't think of any adult singlehanded classes where women regularly win in mixed events, so there's got to be a suspicion that something must be going on. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 7:34pm
It speaks volumes that I have to even explain that, So no and we are in the 2nd decade of the 21st century and both the other sailing disciplines, windsurfing & kitesurfing don't differentiate, they basically use the same equipment. So should boat racing, the fact it doesn't happen is just historic misogyny ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 9:52pm
Have I misunderstood you there? Do Kite people all use the same boards, foils and kites? Isn't Bryony's sail smaller than Nick's? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Oct 16 at 10:11pm
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Don't women use a smaller shotput, discus, lower hurdles (running 100m, not 110, because of generally shorter stride length). They do, with overlap, I believe, a different set of events in gymnastics. So why an exact match in sailing? The Laser and 49er are similar to the lighter weight equipment in athletics. Same idea, smaller sail. Perhaps scaling down the hull would be apt, but at what cost? As for the Finn, what men only athletic events are there? Hammer certainly was, still is?
But, if equality of medals is needed, it is an obvious one to go. Doesn't help that one small island has won every Olympics in it this century. Never mind that we were sh*t at Finn sailing for the best part of 50 years previous to that! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 12:59am
Actually I'm NOT justifying the circus, saying sailing should be changed for TV, or denigrating non-Olympic events. All I was saying is that there is no objective evidence that sailing as a whole outside of the Games has 'moved on' from the Olympics. Perhaps one thing, though, is that we know that in the most popular equipment-intensive sport, the legends in the marquee events use essentially the same sort of kit that the weekend warrior uses. Looking inside the sport, at magazine and website comments for example, shows that its participants love the feeling that they can do pretty much what the pros do on the same sort of kit (although they do it slower). It's arguable that Olympic sailing provides that; we can look at Ainslie or Slingsby and see them doing pretty much what we can do that weekend. If sailing gets dumped from the Games and all that people see on the TV and net is foiling cats charging around, that aspect may become totally lost, and that could possibly hurt the sport. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 1:02am
Well, many people say that youth are encouraged to move away from club racing into squads, and then get burned out. Whether that's correct hasn't been proven, but on the other hand there's certainly no proof that concentrating on the elite increases the popularity of the sport. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 1:17am
Interesting point, and it probably shows that I was wrong and that there is little room for growth. The situation is similar down here; Cycling Australia has a comparatively small membership, probably because it's a very elitist organisation that charges outrageous fees and does nothing for the grass roots clubs. It's one of the reasons some of us are concerned about sailing following the same route. ------------- sailcraftblog.wordpress.com The history and design of the racing dinghy. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 9:33am
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Only 11,000 RYA members are listed as dinghy sailors; a tiny number ...
http://www.rya.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/Pages/rya-statistics.aspx |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 20 Oct 16 at 10:11am
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One of the issues that rather complicates this discussion is the ease at which a success in attracting a Youth fleet/activity is confused with the wider topic of 'mainstream' dinghy racing. I touched on this back in March with the 'Silver Dream Racer' article, where, if I recall, I pointed out that if the authorities that 'manage' our sport are not careful, in the future there won't be the wide spread, easily accessible dinghy racing
that we can enjoy today. One could go so far as to say that the RYA focus on Yoof is on a par with their deliberate focus on Olympic glory (indeed, one is seen as the precursor to the other). What needs nurturing now is the sport as is; yes, mainly white, some could even say middle aged and middle class- but these are the people who keep sailing clubs around the country running on a week by week basis, not to mention the class structure of the boats we sail.
That, to me at least, is what the term 'grassroots' implies. Only time will tell if the yoof of today will become the club and class stalwarts of tomorrow! And as for you Rupert - shame on you? Sh*t at Finn sailing? In Chris Law we had one of the youngest winners of the Gold Cup and as good a prospect for a medal in 1980 as we were ever likely to get. That he didn't get the chance for his Olympic glory is yet another shameful failing to be laid at the door of the RYA! ------------- Dougal H |