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sargesail View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris 249 and TT....
Had you asked this question in March, after the Dinghy Show, you'd have gotten a fairly negative, dismal answer. However, as I wander around the UK following events, either as RO  or to cover them for various media outlets, I'm seeing something happening.  What this is I'm not sure as yet for how things are going to end up is far from clear. What I have started to note is yet another twist in the turn of the fundamental changes that are impacting on the dinghy racing scene. Underpinning these changes is a theme that runs along the lines of  " I pay for my club membership, why fork out a small fortune to go somewhere else?". As a result, clubs are trying to sort out the PY system to remove some of the most glaring anomalies, but this is only part of the change I've seen. I've noted that without any top down guidance, sailors at clubs are getting themselves organised into classes (anyone remember class captains??).  The result of this is once sailors get good quality sailing at their local club, are they less likely to travel to opens and championships. Just yesterday I picked up on a conversation that suggested that a couple of clubs that were in effect neighbours would do something of a 'local open'...a one day spent all sailing together. When you get a damn good racer, from one of the main open meeting supported classes, making a conscious decision to NOT go to an even because...cost, time away and besides, he's getting good competition locally. Are these just local hot spots in an otherwise gloomy decline or are they the green shoots of a different approach to how adults (I accept the youth scene has a different dynamic) is developing. Am digging further!!

But as an extension to this, in one of the classes I race we are seeing a number of new folk on the circuit who are coming to Opens as an extension of the Class Racing they had enjoyed in Class Captain envigorated Club fleets.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I don't want to spend £10k on a piece of 1960's technology. Equally I don't want to spend £10k on a contemporary design only to find I have no one to play with.   So I buy nothing and the sport suffers.

Did you really buy nothing? I bought a well used £800 "lost class" and race occasionally in one or another club's handicap fleet, quite happy with that.

If sailors were less partisan, then we could learn to accept that an MPS and a 700 are, to all intents and purposes, the same class. Likewise the ISO, 4000, Alto and 505 (and possibly the 29er). The Radial, Streaker, Solo, Byte and Europe. Even the Lark and the 200. Amalgamate classes to get bigger, more dynamic, but fewer classes.

I totally agree with that, ISO, 4000, Alto, 505 and 29er could share a racecourse and it would be no less fair than N12s or I14s

Racing a Graduate against a 49er can only ever be a novelty, you will never get a meaningful result with such a mismatch. But a race between one-man hiking boats, or two-man single trapeze boats can be fair and fun. It requires a change of mindset within the racing fraternity to think of Streakers and Solos as the same class – picking the boat is just an extension of choosing whether to use P&B or HD sails with your Winder Mk2 or Ovington hull. To a great extent they can be raced off scratch as their performance profiles and PYs are generally quite similar. You could use PY numbers as a secondary bit of interest. Really this is no different to racing various N12 designs against each other, and allowing those designs known to be substantially slower a bit of leeway.

Didn't somebody suggest recently (maybe you Peaky) a "14' single trap class" and a "12' Unarig class" (or some such)? That might be fun. As you say the development class paradigm is just like that. It might work best if two or three contemporary classes (D-Zero/Aero/H2 etc for example) ran joint race meetings and sailed head to head. Most Motor racing works that way after all.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 26 Sep 16 at 11:08pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 8:16am
I think I agree with most of what peaky says, barring the 1960s technology bit. Many of the 1960s designs are being built with very up to date technology. Lipstick on a pig, it gets called here. What it really is, is a proven, popular design which works well in a cross section of locations and weather conditions being brought up to date so another generation of sailors can enjoy close racing. Whether a class gets the updating process right governs whether they fade or remain strong. This needs a good relationship between owners and builders. Oddly, it doesn't seem to matter whether a class is SMOD, multi builder OD or development for this process to work, or not.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Peaky

I don't want to spend £10k on a piece of 1960's technology. Equally I don't want to spend £10k on a contemporary design only to find I have no one to play with.   So I buy nothing and the sport suffers.

It seems to me that it is important that we offer sailors choice, but that fragmenting into too many different classes is filled with downsides.

If sailors were less partisan, then we could learn to accept that an MPS and a 700 are, to all intents and purposes, the same class. Likewise the ISO, 4000, Alto and 505 (and possibly the 29er). The Radial, Streaker, Solo, Byte and Europe. Even the Lark and the 200. Amalgamate classes to get bigger, more dynamic, but fewer classes.

Racing a Graduate against a 49er can only ever be a novelty, you will never get a meaningful result with such a mismatch. But a race between one-man hiking boats, or two-man single trapeze boats can be fair and fun. It requires a change of mindset within the racing fraternity to think of Streakers and Solos as the same class – picking the boat is just an extension of choosing whether to use P&B or HD sails with your Winder Mk2 or Ovington hull. To a great extent they can be raced off scratch as their performance profiles and PYs are generally quite similar. You could use PY numbers as a secondary bit of interest. Really this is no different to racing various N12 designs against each other, and allowing those designs known to be substantially slower a bit of leeway.

The RYA have been incredibly laissez-faire about encouraging (not forcing) the more serious racing element into similar boats, leaving the club racing scene entirely to market forces. "A good thing too" you may say. Well, possibly. But even the free-est of free markets are usually regulated in some way. As a sport we have no definitive singlehanded national champion, there is fixture congestion, there is no differentiation between the social pastime racing and 'elbows out' industry-backed racing and it takes years of inside knowledge to know which clubs/classes/events fit best with your personal priorities.

spot on.... now about that HERO fleet.... did I read it right that they sailed together, scratch, at FED Week this summer?  Can I come and play?  I'll bring a rooster 8.1 and laser with a self made rudder mod.... can't think it'll be a speed advantage over the new kids in the two main fleets, but it will even it up a little and I'll be on the water, racing as equally as I care to, for under £1500.......  
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 9:52am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Peaky

I don't want to spend £10k on a piece of 1960's technology. Equally I don't want to spend £10k on a contemporary design only to find I have no one to play with.   So I buy nothing and the sport suffers.

It seems to me that it is important that we offer sailors choice, but that fragmenting into too many different classes is filled with downsides.

If sailors were less partisan, then we could learn to accept that an MPS and a 700 are, to all intents and purposes, the same class. Likewise the ISO, 4000, Alto and 505 (and possibly the 29er). The Radial, Streaker, Solo, Byte and Europe. Even the Lark and the 200. Amalgamate classes to get bigger, more dynamic, but fewer classes.

Racing a Graduate against a 49er can only ever be a novelty, you will never get a meaningful result with such a mismatch. But a race between one-man hiking boats, or two-man single trapeze boats can be fair and fun. It requires a change of mindset within the racing fraternity to think of Streakers and Solos as the same class – picking the boat is just an extension of choosing whether to use P&B or HD sails with your Winder Mk2 or Ovington hull. To a great extent they can be raced off scratch as their performance profiles and PYs are generally quite similar. You could use PY numbers as a secondary bit of interest. Really this is no different to racing various N12 designs against each other, and allowing those designs known to be substantially slower a bit of leeway.

The RYA have been incredibly laissez-faire about encouraging (not forcing) the more serious racing element into similar boats, leaving the club racing scene entirely to market forces. "A good thing too" you may say. Well, possibly. But even the free-est of free markets are usually regulated in some way. As a sport we have no definitive singlehanded national champion, there is fixture congestion, there is no differentiation between the social pastime racing and 'elbows out' industry-backed racing and it takes years of inside knowledge to know which clubs/classes/events fit best with your personal priorities.

spot on.... now about that HERO fleet.... did I read it right that they sailed together, scratch, at FED Week this summer?  Can I come and play?  I'll bring a rooster 8.1 and laser with a self made rudder mod.... can't think it'll be a speed advantage over the new kids in the two main fleets, but it will even it up a little and I'll be on the water, racing as equally as I care to, for under £1500.......  

The problem with introducing another 'class' to that is that someone might object. As happened this year which is why the H2's were not allowed to come out and play with the Zero/Aero scratch fleet.
Paul
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 9:54am
Interesting too, comparing a modern design with a 'classic, that a Blaze is only 2º faster than a Finn in this years PY list (1021 against 1042, or less than one missed wind shift?) despite 46 years of progress spanning the most innovative period in dinghy design between them. Sobering to think that our modern 'fast' boats are often not much faster than the classic 'slow boats' with few being more than 5% faster than a classic with similar length and sail area despite modern hull forms, more righting moment and less weight.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 27 Sep 16 at 10:00am
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 9:56am
Indeed Jeffers, but let's be realistic.... H2 is a one man merlin, wide as faark and a stayed rig.  I like the boat, but it's a different direction from the sit-on-top, unstayed unarig, Laser replacers from RS and Devoti.  

Anyway, what was the feedback like from FED Week - generally speaking, was the amalgamation well received??  Genuine question from someone who thinks it genuinely is a genius idea.  


Edited by turnturtle - 27 Sep 16 at 9:57am
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 10:01am
The trouble with 'composite' classes is that someone will design and sell a slightly faster, much more expensive boat that fits it.
F16 Catamarans are like this I believe...
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 10:15am
And I14s, Cherubs, 12' Skiffs, Merlins, Moths, etc (ok, I know most of these have fairly tight rig restrictions over and above a simple area measurement)  Wink
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 16 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Interesting too, comparing a modern design with a 'classic, that a Blaze is only 2º faster than a Finn in this years PY list (1021 against 1042, or less than one missed wind shift?) despite 46 years of progress spanning the most innovative period in dinghy design between them. Sobering to think that our modern 'fast' boats are often not much faster than the classic 'slow boats' with few being more than 5% faster than a classic with similar length and sail area despite modern hull forms, more righting moment and less weight.

I suspect that's partly a reflection of the number of very good sailors sailing Finns and the shortcomings of the PY system. Also a Finn rig has a lot more modern technology in it than a 'one rig fits all' SMOD like a Blaze. A 2010 Finn is very much different from a 1960's finn. Even an Enterprise rig has evolved subtly but effectively.
But clever people have been working hard on boat design for many many years. The laws of physics have not changed. People designing boats in the 50s and 60s had a fair idea of what they were doing.
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