Buy a Ferrari 1962 250 GT SWB. £1.5 Million.

Hire an ex champion touring car driver to drive it, £££££

Hire an expert team to maintain it, £££

Transport it round Europe to various high quality classic race meetings, ££££

Entry fees, tyres, consumables ££££

Then said touring car driver smacks it into the tyre wall *******

Sailing is so cheap......

Probably true Dan but I thought no one would believe me!

Fact is little or much you can make pretty well any sport as expensive or cheap as your ambition or desire dictates.

 

As an ongoing hobby it's very likely more expensive than sailing, but cheaper to dip in and out of.  Plus a set of clubs can linger in the loft without any real cost or inconvenience.

Worth bearing in mind that there was a good stock of competitive second hand boats in these classes at the time, that could be done up, and season old sails could be picked up off the open meeting sailors.  

At that time magazines like Y&Y and Yachting and Boating Weekly made heroes of some of the open meeting winners, and therefore it was exciting when a Silver Tiller Meeting came to the lake, especially if you got to crew for one of the old boys at the club.

Also, the Adult Class boats were often lent to Juniors/Cadets to give them the experience, often for Open Meetings or Cup Races.  Quite a few of my generation at that club are still racing dinghies today ... 40 years on.

Jim - are you sure there's absolutely no-one in your life who might like to learn to sail and could manage the front of something like an Ent?

Or do you really mean you can't find anyone to crew a high performance double-hander with a view to winning?

Of course, so many helm's aversion to doing the former may be a reason for the distinct lack of the latter type of crew.

for me it's simply a matter of time... a friend and I talked about buying a fireball for club racing on a Wednesday night.  Nice in theory, but then a quick look at calendars and we could have both made a max of 5 of them all year due to work and pre-existing / priority family holidays.... sorry, but that's just not enough of a return on investment.... We came to the conclusion that in reality, we'd be better off sharing a Laser- a suggestion that neither of us have rushed to take to fruition.  

To a degree you're all proving my point - the examples above all seem to want a ready trained sailor to crew a complex trap and/or kite boat. Go to just a main and jib and the pool of potential crews grows a huge amount. You have to specifically invite people though, to get new people through the door. Just randomly asking rarely seems to bring results.

The point relating to the original thread - conflating boat ownership and going sailing as one and the same  is the mistake. Crewing is cheap as chips, boat ownership less so...

Fair enough, but that's certainly reducing the pool of potential team-mates.

Not sure anyone is going to force you, I purely plucked the Ent out as an example of a simple boat.

Given how often sailing's decline is discussed on here it's curious that very few are willing in any way to adjust their own sailing in a way that might grow the sport. Easier to hope that external things such as TV coverage or ever faster boats will somehow solve it, or that the blame lies with those non-sailors being 'too lazy' (quite a common line of reasoning in various dying activities - a bit like a crap restaurant blaming its absent customers rather than the food...  ).

Crewing solves the main barrier - the perception that sailing in any form is expensive - but it's not going to get very far unless we sail boats that are accessible for a broad spectrum of crews.

that might work with the Fireball tbh.... not sure either of us are too keen on stepping back in an 800 again.  

and is that likely to change if we all go out and buy Ents or iCons or whatever they are to be called by the Seppos.... hunting for crews on club Facebook groups whilst trying to manage yours and their duty swaps on that other sh*t site we all use now.    

What's the alternative ... picking up adult newbies off of courses only to be stitched come winter time and they've all ticked 'sailing' on their bucket list?  And let's not go started on the other talent pool: 'grooming' crews out of youth classes..... shall we call this Operation Yewtree just for the irony?   It genuinely wouldn't surprise me to find out that parents would ask to CRB check boat owners these days before Amelia and Tarquin are allowed out to play.... times have certainly changed folks, no point harking back.  

What's the alternative ... picking up adult newbies off of courses only to be stitched come winter time and they've all ticked 'sailing' on their bucket list?  

Well we could all just argue about PY over and over and over (and over) again...

I think you're way off about the adult beginners. My local kayak clubs racing section was equally sceptical about running an adult begin racing course (it's a sport with almost identical demographic problems and expensive, difficult to use kit). A year on we have over 50% of the original course still racing and a similar hit ratio for the second course. Probably the biggest influx of new people they've seen for a very long time.

Sailing courses are pretty expensive - people have to be pretty motivated to do that. I suspect they then get put off when they realise how inward looking and disinterested in beginners most clubs are.

indeed - I think you could be very right.  I'd be interested to see the sign up rate and retention rate (3 years +) from adult beginner courses.  I suspect the latter is mere snip of the former, but hey, I'm completely guessing here...... perhaps there's someone who actually knows lurking here? 

Beginners buying their own boats and trailing round way behind the club fleet is -  unsusprisingly -  demotivating for them in many cases,

It's one of the lures of the 16ft cats.... high performance, but accessible single handers, or good rides for newbies on the front too.  

Agreed about crewing positions attractiveness but I'm contemplating moving up the front of the Spice and letting my crew take over stick wiggling duties to see if we work together better that way (we have very little time to practice together and even less racing). I'll be tactician, mainsail trimmer, spinnaker handler and moving ballast, he can just point it and concentrate on keeping it in the groove.

I disagree tha £5k is entry level money though, a beginner could easily buy a used boat, all the sailing kit and join a club and still have change from £1000 if they are happy with an old Ent/L@ser or WHY and not too precious about having the latest carbon/kevlar/foam sandwich super light boat from whatever is currently the flavour of the month.

Sailing is never going to be as cheap to participate in as footy on the park but it needn't be an expensive sport by most people's standards.

I'm presenting my thoughts from the perspective of a novice couple who have researched the details of taking up sailing.

They would probably go to the RYA site to check out how to learn. They would conclude that they needed a 1&2 certificate and would have to join a club. Good sense that.

They would probably go to a club website to find out what was expected. Some clubs state that duties are expected. One of the duties stated would be safety boat and of course the appropriate course would be suggested.

I agree with you that the courses don't have to be done.......but it is often presented that way.

and in conditions where a safety boat is actually needed  there are usually  some  suitably trained people who can be encouraged to  provide a 'proper'  rescue boat service 

Indeed wherever would there be any evidence of affordable, easy to use kit making an activity more popular.

The dinghy boom...sit-on-top kayaks...digital cameras...SUP...monofilament fishing line and glassfibre rods...probably plenty of other examples in other sports and activities. 

As Chris249 seems to have pointing out for years on this forum - the most popular dinghy classes are the slow, relatively cheap, simple to use and own. The future is unlikely to be foils or multis no matter how many photos, videos and breathless column inches in the sailing press there are.

Also most competitive kit sports end up with the equipment being pushed further and further to the elite end of the spectrum by a small number of the participants. So you end up with where windsurfing or kayaking are - a boom and then a (maybe permanent) bust. SUP racing is heading along this trajectory at the moment - big growth, but the top guys want ever narrower boards...it won't end well.

With sailing in general and dinghy racing in particular - without taking people sailing (ideally more than once) there is little way they can decide if they are going to like it. It is such an abstract sport and so far removed from most people's experience - but it is worth sharing, rather than retreating into 'it's like that and that the way it is'. 

 

What's the alternative ... picking up adult newbies off of courses only to be stitched come winter time and they've all ticked 'sailing' on their bucket list?  

Well we could all just argue about PY over and over and over (and over) again...

I think you're way off about the adult beginners. My local kayak clubs racing section was equally sceptical about running an adult begin racing course (it's a sport with almost identical demographic problems and expensive, difficult to use kit). A year on we have over 50% of the original course still racing and a similar hit ratio for the second course. Probably the biggest influx of new people they've seen for a very long time.

Sailing courses are pretty expensive - people have to be pretty motivated to do that. I suspect they then get put off when they realise how inward looking and disinterested in beginners most clubs are.

The only couple to go from my club's beginner course who got into racing tell us that until my wife and I (also newbs to the club) went over to talk to them, they had basically been completely ignored. They love the sport, bought their own boat, and then got left behind both on the water and in the clubhouse afterwards. 

Now they have both crewed our boat, I've crewed their boat, and we see each other socially off the water. But it's hard for a small group of people to overcome the issue that the club has a whole is not welcoming, and it's hard to see how one can overcome that. We've basically given up and will probably not re-join or do club racing this season.

It's been an eye-opener to move away from our old club when we moved house. People who dropped in at our old club often used to say how different it was to go to check out a club and have people come up and chat to them. Many people raced old boats, and that was completely accepted. Partly for that reason, it actually has more boats and more members than it did in the '80s, when dinghy sailing was generally much stronger.  

The sad thing is that I get the impression that our new club is more typical of the sport as a whole than our old one. Of course, if you listen to some people in the industry there is a very simple cure to the whole problem. Next time someone wonders about sailing, just show them the latest foiling cat that costs a mere year's salary, and they'll jump at it!

 I wouldn't find fault with courses because I respect the time and effort our unpaid instructors put in. BUT Doing a course is only a small element of learning to sail and race. Unless you are particularly gifted you can multiply the hours spent on a course by 5 if a youngster and 10 in a late entrant for muscle memory and confidence to become established. Crewing can play a useful part in getting this time on the water. 

I'm not sure I'm terribly comfortable with that idea but it does make a strange kind of sense. But, it ain't gonna happen unless clubs close down due to lack of members (sad for the few remaining loyal members) or two clubs sharing a water amalgamate (as happened to the club I was a member of in my youth). The latter can only happen where two clubs are on the same pond, river or bit of coast so it's not going to make much difference to the overall number of clubs in the UK.

I agree with that one - we need fewer classes of boat too.

there's quite a difference between coastal and inland venues......  there's at least 10 sailing clubs within an hours drive of my house in the cotswolds (assuming normal traffic, which you can never assume when the Clarksons and Caravaners of the world turn a road into a playground).  All seem to struggle for regular numbers - both on the race course and in the hut.  Secondly, other than lasers and solos, there's literally no proper class racing for anything else - which is depressing considering the stories the old guys can tell.    Harsh as it might sound, a few of those 10 going pop wouldn't exactly be a bad medium to long term outcome.  

I'm not criticising any of these clubs in any way, but I am ceaselessly amazed that on about 12 miles of Solent coast, you have 8 sailing clubs (Weston, Netley, Hamble River, Warsash, Hill Head, Seafarers, Lee-on-Solent and Stokes Bay) all providing dinghy racing. That's a lot of choice.

I started in the sport the old fashioned way, went down to my local club and crewed for anyone who needed someone in the front of an Enterprise. First time we went out i wore a pari of shorts, t-shirt and an old pair of trainers. So first year of dinghy sailing cost me the club membership, a few hundred. I then did my L1 and L2 so I could take club boats out and progressed from there. Ten years later I still predominantly crew and am not that bad at it. I have spent some time on the tiller, had a Laser for a bit. Done 4 National Championships and done quite well considering I hadn't sailed a dinghy before I was 24. 

In that first year I must have crewed for at least a dozen different very competent helms all very different not just in the way that they sailed but how they engaged with a new crew (and I think this is also very important. The range went from sit there pull that in tight and sit still to feeling part of a team, a helm asking to look for wind, offer tactical suggestion (and explaining why I was wrong), I learnt the most from the latter, and enjoyed it much much more. Feeling part of something is very important. If there was just the first type of helm, I think I would have felt a bit disenfranchised and left out had I not been so keen on sailing (and probably given up)

I am willing to jump in a boat and crew for anyone whether they be beginner or seasoned vetran and always encourage crew swapping on club/fleet days

Its the best way to learn rather than doing courses

indeed .... chuck in the windguru validation rule, the web cam second opinion rule and the hangovers and yep, I don't bother going more than I ought to admit.... especially not for handicap racing with separated starts - a policy which flushed the only five minutes of actual proper racing down the toilet.    

I'm not sure I agree - I'm only advocating hoovering up and abolishing the bit classes.  Also if you look at the number of clubs in some areas you wouldn't really be increasing travel time...

Where I am for example there are about 10 within a 5 mile radius!

Interestingly, at the welsh harp where I used to sail they've got what I think is a very effective system - there are only certain approved classes that can use the lake (GP14s, Merlins, Lasers) and although there are multiple clubs (each club vaguely "owns" some of the classes), they get great turnouts, good racing and a really strong stream of beginners coming through.

In the laser fleet there are gold, silver and bronze fleets racing, with individual prizes and rankings, so that the lessor/newer sailors have still got something to fight for which keeps them interested and progressing.

Let's be honest though, this analogy is terrible   where to even start...

How about this... it's all about cereal eating competitions... and you're the only one with shreddies so you have to sit in a corner on your own.

Big inland clubs  are often on reservoirs and the water companies   being  (ex)public sector love their rules and regs , compared tothe attitude taken by the aggegate companies who are quite happy to turn over the vast majority of  responsibilities for management of what is their 'waste'  ... 

 interestingly  where sailing clubs have become the master lesee  for a water they don;t seek to exclude others ... comared to some of the fishing 'clubs' ...

I hear what you're saying, but it only takes one example to disprove the rule, and that is the healthy membership and racing that goes on at the welsh harp.  Perhaps people left to their own devices will destroy class racing and subsequently participation, but if you make them all sail the same class everything runs along quite happily?

The way I see the issue is that people want to "win" and in class racing, you generally can't.  If you let people go and buy another boat that might let them "win more" even if that's only on the water and not on handicap, or at the very least gives them the excuse that it was the handicaps fault they didn't win then some of them will go and do that.   

You can also solve the problem with a little bit of effort in the organisation and have different competitions running within the class racing for people of different standards.   I'm a firm believer that quality of racing is what matters, not "quality" or "speed" of boat.

http://www.welshharpsailingclub.org/results/sat_summer16_a.htm

Please forgive my completely random selection of results but that looks a lot of DNQs there for the series. North London so I'm guessing hardly short of population to go at.

  

As an analogy, IMHO the world's standard road bikes all basically fit into a single restricted or formula class; that is, the rules governing their design are probably about as tight as the rules governing (say) the F18s or Merlins, and much tighter than the Moths. If you turn up with anything outside of that box you're not normally allowed on the start line. I notice that even something fairly casual like the Ride London Sportive bans a lot of bikes, including half of the ones I race.

It's interesting that two of the world's dinghy racing heartlands seem to have completely different ideas about class racing. Where I used to live, at most clubs if you turned up with a boat that didn't fit one of the official classes you would have as much chance to compete as if you turned up with a cricket bat and stumps at a baseball club. Obviously that works. Since the UK commonly follows the opposite model, obviously that works as well.

Can anyone tell me whether there is more class racing in the regions of  the UK where dinghy sailing is more popular, and (because of the obvious chicken and egg issue) what the changes have been like over time? It's apparent that in the dinghy boomtime, there was a great emphasis on class racing. Obviously the current model still works well, but is there data which proves that one model is better than the other?

PS For what it's worth, I'm the opposite of Jim. Since I moved away from an area where you get class racing I've been trying once again to get into mixed fleet racing, but just find it so frustrating that I've given up club racing instead. I'd rather just train and sail for fun than go mixed fleet racing.

For your first point, perhaps it's not location, but age range which divides successful class racing from drossing around against a spreadsheet.  You don't see many Optimists at a club which are predominantly sailing Teras or Cadets for instance.  Even back in the early 90's my parents switched clubs so my sister and I could sail optimists (to our own agenda), rather than take the natural step into the front of another kid's cadet.  It wasn't that unusual, especially when the clubs were less than 20 minutes apart by road.  

Parents seem to be more ready to fall in line when it comes to their offspring's choice of boat rather than their own.  I'd say that's countrywide, rather than specific to any particular region.  Also dinghy racing is pretty diverse across the UK... you might not see it reported as widely, but there are little clubs all over the least hospitable parts of this land (even Lancashire).... and they all provide good, solid club racing with a strong class ethos in youth and junior levels.

Regarding the final point - I can't agree more.  I'm even mulling over the idea of a 2 hour drive each way to get decent mid-week class racing in something other than a Laser next season.  I'm not sure if it'll work, or whether work with let it work, but I know if it's a choice between handicap racing and another Laser at my current club, the latter would be the decision a head would make over a heart.    

Chris 249 and TT....

Had you asked this question in March, after the Dinghy Show, you'd have gotten a fairly negative, dismal answer. However, as I wander around the UK following events, either as RO  or to cover them for various media outlets, I'm seeing something happening.  What this is I'm not sure as yet for how things are going to end up is far from clear. What I have started to note is yet another twist in the turn of the fundamental changes that are impacting on the dinghy racing scene. Underpinning these changes is a theme that runs along the lines of  " I pay for my club membership, why fork out a small fortune to go somewhere else?". As a result, clubs are trying to sort out the PY system to remove some of the most glaring anomalies, but this is only part of the change I've seen. I've noted that without any top down guidance, sailors at clubs are getting themselves organised into classes (anyone remember class captains??).  The result of this is once sailors get good quality sailing at their local club, are they less likely to travel to opens and championships. Just yesterday I picked up on a conversation that suggested that a couple of clubs that were in effect neighbours would do something of a 'local open'...a one day spent all sailing together. When you get a damn good racer, from one of the main open meeting supported classes, making a conscious decision to NOT go to an even because...cost, time away and besides, he's getting good competition locally. Are these just local hot spots in an otherwise gloomy decline or are they the green shoots of a different approach to how adults (I accept the youth scene has a different dynamic) is developing. Am digging further!!