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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

.....
PS For what it's worth, I'm the opposite of Jim. Since I moved away from an area where you get class racing I've been trying once again to get into mixed fleet racing, but just find it so frustrating that I've given up club racing instead. I'd rather just train and sail for fun than go mixed fleet racing.


I don't know about Jim, but some people like mixed fleet racing precisely because it's not like level class racing. Not everyone feels the need to be competitive, some people would prefer to stay out of the Laser and Solo bunfights at marks or sailing down reaches in a tight crowd, so they get something different and just enjoy a sail in a boat that's a bit more individual.
Some really don't care about the competitive side of things, some do but are happy sailing against nature and the clock rather than boat-on-boat tactics.
For some people a race is merely a timeslot where the RIB cover is there and friends will be around aftewards.
Aren't a lot of sports similar?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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No, but a lot of pastimes are 😜
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 12:27pm
Well yes exactly and a question I have posed before.
These arguments will go on forever simply because the ambitions of those who see it as a sport and those who enjoy it as a fulfilling lifetime pastime are not the same.
edit. FWIW. I am more toward the fulfilling lifetime learning pastime end with a more competitive edge thrown in a few times a year when I come together with fellow classmates at interesting venues.




Edited by Do Different - 26 Sep 16 at 12:32pm
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winging it View Drop Down
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 12:29pm
Sitting in my rib yesterday, teaching kids to team race made me slightly hanker after the cut and thrust of fleet racing.  I also wonder if team racing were more widely available to non students, how many would take it up or keep it up after. Uni?
the same, but different...

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turnturtle View Drop Down
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.

Edited by turnturtle - 26 Sep 16 at 12:33pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 12:32pm
I think it takes a lot more time commitment - but ad hoc team racing could be good fun.  UKTRA Seemed awfully serious after the uni circuit, we went to one and never went back with our old boy team after I graduated.

You can sail the uni opens as alumni for a while, but the appeal wears off naturally when you start to feel too old to spend Saturday nights in sticky student unions.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

On the other hand, in what other amateur sports clubs can you turn up with equipment that varies as much as it does in dinghy sailing?

On the other hand we don't have separate competitions in the same boat for one lap races, two lap races, straight line sprints from start to finish and so on. I suspect every sport has its own kind of variety.

Originally posted by RS400atC

some people would prefer to stay out of the Laser and Solo bunfights

I reckon that's a very good post and it makes a lot of sense to me. I can only recall one person saying to me they were dropping out of class racing because they got enough high pressure in the office, but its easy to imagine more. Now I think of it I don't do vintage boat events that feature one particular class in numbers because they (or at least some of them) have an on the water culture that is more aggressive than I consider appropriate for often delicate 40 year old boats.

I think its good that the sport can encompass both elbows out racing (as we used to say in the bike game) and something that's a little less pressured, but still far more focused than wandering round the lake at random.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

No, but a lot of pastimes are 😜

No, it's definitely a Sport if you join in the racing (however non-seriously) I quote the OED :- "Sport - An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."  LOL

TBH, I hate the "win at all costs" attitude in some sport and even worse the "it's only cheating if you get caught" attitude that seems to pervade some top level sport. And regarding the "entertainment" mentioned in the quote, that of the competitors is at least as (if not more) important as any the onlookers derive.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 26 Sep 16 at 12:55pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Chris 249

.....
PS For what it's worth, I'm the opposite of Jim. Since I moved away from an area where you get class racing I've been trying once again to get into mixed fleet racing, but just find it so frustrating that I've given up club racing instead. I'd rather just train and sail for fun than go mixed fleet racing.


I don't know about Jim, but some people like mixed fleet racing precisely because it's not like level class racing. Not everyone feels the need to be competitive, some people would prefer to stay out of the Laser and Solo bunfights at marks or sailing down reaches in a tight crowd, so they get something different and just enjoy a sail in a boat that's a bit more individual.
Some really don't care about the competitive side of things, some do but are happy sailing against nature and the clock rather than boat-on-boat tactics.
For some people a race is merely a timeslot where the RIB cover is there and friends will be around aftewards.
Aren't a lot of sports similar?

Oh yeah, it's very much a case of each to their own. I think the thing that frustrates me about mixed fleet racing is not winning or losing, but that one never really knows how well or poorly one sailed - and you still have to put up with bunfights to a certain extent, but they may be with a poorly-sailed faster boat that should be well ahead of you. There's a fair bit of evidence that's just my own neuroses speaking! :-)

I actually used to really like just training most of the time, with the occasional championship to see how I was doing and get the experience of getting immersed in a different world for a few days. I was just lucky enough to be at a very sociable club for years; the sort of club where you end up going to each other's weddings and houses, and race hard but fairly and respectfully twice a week. It's just about the only thing we miss about living where we did (ie Sydney).



Edited by Chris 249 - 26 Sep 16 at 1:19pm
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The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 16 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Chris 249

Can anyone tell me whether there is more class racing in the regions of  the UK where dinghy sailing is more popular, and (because of the obvious chicken and egg issue) what the changes have been like over time? It's apparent that in the dinghy boomtime, there was a great emphasis on class racing. Obviously the current model still works well, but is there data which proves that one model is better than the other?

....

PS For what it's worth, I'm the opposite of Jim. Since I moved away from an area where you get class racing I've been trying once again to get into mixed fleet racing, but just find it so frustrating that I've given up club racing instead. I'd rather just train and sail for fun than go mixed fleet racing.


For your first point, perhaps it's not location, but age range which divides successful class racing from drossing around against a spreadsheet.  You don't see many Optimists at a club which are predominantly sailing Teras or Cadets for instance.  Even back in the early 90's my parents switched clubs so my sister and I could sail optimists (to our own agenda), rather than take the natural step into the front of another kid's cadet.  It wasn't that unusual, especially when the clubs were less than 20 minutes apart by road.  

Parents seem to be more ready to fall in line when it comes to their offspring's choice of boat rather than their own.  I'd say that's countrywide, rather than specific to any particular region.  Also dinghy racing is pretty diverse across the UK... you might not see it reported as widely, but there are little clubs all over the least hospitable parts of this land (even Lancashire).... and they all provide good, solid club racing with a strong class ethos in youth and junior levels.

Regarding the final point - I can't agree more.  I'm even mulling over the idea of a 2 hour drive each way to get decent mid-week class racing in something other than a Laser next season.  I'm not sure if it'll work, or whether work with let it work, but I know if it's a choice between handicap racing and another Laser at my current club, the latter would be the decision a head would make over a heart.    

Interesting point about age and class racing.

While the small UK clubs don't get reported widely, I find them fascinating and (sad to say) look at their websites, because their success and appeal seems to be a lesson that the whole sport should be learning.  

When I was in the UK a couple of years back I emailed a bunch of them and scheduled my trip to try to get to sail at as many clubs around Lancashire as possible. Only one of the eight or so replied. I had a lovely evening at Chester (and later a nice early race at Croydon, although I stuffed up getting to Welsh Harp where Jim had very kindly arranged for me to sail later that day) but the fact that so few clubs replied may also be significant.

There were also some very interesting posts about the appeal of the small clubs here on Y&Y some time ago. Beecher Moore noted that the typical little club on a gravel pit was a major force in growing the sport in the UK; it's a great model that many people who think they are running the sport seem to ignore. If we could once again combine that sort of quality with the positives of class racing (as they did in the Moore's day) it could be very interesting - but whether it's possible is another issue.


Edited by Chris 249 - 26 Sep 16 at 1:30pm
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The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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