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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Joined: 07 Mar 12
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Expensive Sports...
    Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 5:47pm
Ok, fair comment but factoring in the cost of a 5 day L1&2 course and two people I still think it's possible for under £2k all in. There are plenty of decent boats out there for under £1000, theres a very tidy Topper Topaz Trez going for £750 at my club as I type (cheaper than a 5 day L1&2 course for two people).

Sailing is never going to be as cheap to participate in as footy on the park but it needn't be an expensive sport by most people's standards.

Perhaps what puts a lot of people off is the perceived need to go on courses, back in the boom times in the '60s we just went out and did it. I was lucky enough to be "messing about in boats" (my own Optimist) when I was 11, a few pointers from my dad and then I just worked it out for myself. Same 20 years later when I got into windsurfing, I read a couple of books and taught myself.
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by transient


On top of that there would be expected duties at the club, so sooner or later there would be Power boat course and Safety boat course.


There are plenty of duties that don't involve the need to drive a safety boat. Plus is it precisely the duty you don't want to spread around too much, otherwise you end up with drivers who don't get enough practice to be useful.
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by DiscoBall


Given how often sailing's decline is discussed on here it's curious that very few are willing in any way to adjust their own sailing in a way that might grow the sport.


Just very few? I'm surprised there are any at all if your suggestion is that we should go and buy different boats to the ones we actually want on the questionable assumption that would attract new sailors.
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transient View Drop Down
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by transient


On top of that there would be expected duties at the club, so sooner or later there would be Power boat course and Safety boat course.


There are plenty of duties that don't involve the need to drive a safety boat. Plus is it precisely the duty you don't want to spread around too much, otherwise you end up with drivers who don't get enough practice to be useful.

I'm presenting my thoughts from the perspective of a novice couple who have researched the details of taking up sailing.

They would probably go to the RYA site to check out how to learn. They would conclude that they needed a 1&2 certificate and would have to join a club. Good sense that.

They would probably go to a club website to find out what was expected. Some clubs state that duties are expected. One of the duties stated would be safety boat and of course the appropriate course would be suggested.

I agree with you that the courses don't have to be done.......but it is often presented that way.
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by blueboy


Originally posted by DiscoBall

Given how often sailing's decline is discussed on here it's curious that very few are willing in any way to adjust their own sailing in a way that might grow the sport.
Just very few? I'm surprised there are any at all if your suggestion is that we should go and buy different boats to the ones we actually want on the questionable assumption that would attract new sailors.


Well the boat I would want to sail would be one where I'm at the back on a trap. Given my lack of time, to get back up to the skill level where any half decent crew would be interested, basically means I would be crewless and not sailing at all. So yes I bought a boat that would be easy to find crews for, not one I really wanted to sail.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 8:03pm
Having sailed all manner of boats incl. Graduates, Lasers, ISO, Int 14, RS600, 49er, RS700 I now sail a Graduate and an OK. Both traditional boats and both somewhat slower than many of my previous boats. The thing is that these boats are no less rewarding. Sure they don't have the initial kerb appeal, but you don't watch your boat sailing, you actively participate in sailing it so a) it doesn't matter what it looks like and b) it doesn't actually matter how fast it is. The key thing is that it feels good and keeps you entertained.

For me the thing that is killing entry to the sport is the misguided belief that you need the qualifications before you race. The only sailing course I have done was a joint services comp. crew which was frankly just a free holiday, and yet I have somehow survived dinghy racing for 35yrs. Rather than simply churning people through courses we need to just get them out crewing for people.
But the next issue is that an awful lot of wannabe sailors want to helm and don't seem to have any interest in crewing, so even when offered opportunities they turn them down because they want the glory job of steering.

Of course all of this is mixed with the desire for instant gratification. People expect to have a chance of winning on their 2nd sail, but that's just madness unless you are iGRF ;)

Somehow we need to get people crewing and we need boats like Ents, Grads, Fireflies and Albacores to get people in.

Edited by craiggo - 22 Sep 16 at 8:04pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by transient

....
I'm presenting my thoughts from the perspective of a novice couple who have researched the details of taking up sailing.

They would probably go to the RYA site to check out how to learn. They would conclude that they needed a 1&2 certificate and would have to join a club. Good sense that.

They would probably go to a club website to find out what was expected. Some clubs state that duties are expected. One of the duties stated would be safety boat and of course the appropriate course would be suggested.

I agree with you that the courses don't have to be done.......but it is often presented that way.

None of my last four clubs have required powerboat or safetyboat courses.

I think your hypothetical (?) couple need to decide what they want.
Sailing is not just a sport to dip into, it's  halfway to being a way of life.

Sometimes it seems to me what makes it expensive is half-decent club racers splashing out on new boats, sails etc, just for club racing. Which puts pressure on people not to have a go with a tatty old boat and old sails.
My latest exploit is costing similar to gym membership.
I reckon £200 club membership and boat storage, harbour dues.
£200 for a replica L*ser sail every other year
£70 for insurance
£100 for depreciation on a mid fleet boat?

At least half the UK population could afford that if they wanted to, you just have to wind back on the Sky, flash holidays, cars on HP, drugs gambling, smoking or drinking.

Sailing isn't for everyone, there is little point trying to drag more people in if they'd rather be doing something else. Also, what are you trying to drag them into? Sailing or Dinghy Racing?
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by transient


On top of that there would be expected duties at the club, so sooner or later there would be Power boat course and Safety boat course.


There are plenty of duties that don't involve the need to drive a safety boat. Plus is it precisely the duty you don't want to spread around too much, otherwise you end up with drivers who don't get enough practice to be useful.

and in conditions where a safety boat is actually needed  there are usually  some  suitably trained people who can be encouraged to  provide a 'proper'  rescue boat service 
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transient View Drop Down
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by transient

....
I'm presenting my thoughts from the perspective of a novice couple who have researched the details of taking up sailing.

They would probably go to the RYA site to check out how to learn. They would conclude that they needed a 1&2 certificate and would have to join a club. Good sense that.

They would probably go to a club website to find out what was expected. Some clubs state that duties are expected. One of the duties stated would be safety boat and of course the appropriate course would be suggested.

I agree with you that the courses don't have to be done.......but it is often presented that way.

None of my last four clubs have required powerboat or safetyboat courses.

I think your hypothetical (?) couple need to decide what they want.
Sailing is not just a sport to dip into, it's  halfway to being a way of life.

Sometimes it seems to me what makes it expensive is half-decent club racers splashing out on new boats, sails etc, just for club racing. Which puts pressure on people not to have a go with a tatty old boat and old sails.
My latest exploit is costing similar to gym membership.
I reckon £200 club membership and boat storage, harbour dues.
£200 for a replica L*ser sail every other year
£70 for insurance
£100 for depreciation on a mid fleet boat?

At least half the UK population could afford that if they wanted to, you just have to wind back on the Sky, flash holidays, cars on HP, drugs gambling, smoking or drinking.

Sailing isn't for everyone, there is little point trying to drag more people in if they'd rather be doing something else. Also, what are you trying to drag them into? Sailing or Dinghy Racing?


And my club doesn't require it. I was saying that some clubs suggest safety boat duties are required and that safety boat courses are available, in print, on their websites. It is presented as an additional expense to a lay person researching the sport.

I'm not trying to drag anyone into anything but the "Sailing or Dinghy Racing" comment.....that really is a laugh on this forum.

Sailing is not the cheapest sport to get into neither is it the most expensive (horse riding sheesh) but if you think any lasting participants can do it for a few quid then you are mistaken. 

Many of these expense issues (and others) come about by the way that sailing presents itself.
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 16 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by blueboy


Just very few? I'm surprised there are any at all if your suggestion is that we should go and buy different boats to the ones we actually want on the questionable assumption that would attract new sailors.

Indeed wherever would there be any evidence of affordable, easy to use kit making an activity more popular.

The dinghy boom...sit-on-top kayaks...digital cameras...SUP...monofilament fishing line and glassfibre rods...probably plenty of other examples in other sports and activities. 

As Chris249 seems to have pointing out for years on this forum - the most popular dinghy classes are the slow, relatively cheap, simple to use and own. The future is unlikely to be foils or multis no matter how many photos, videos and breathless column inches in the sailing press there are.

Also most competitive kit sports end up with the equipment being pushed further and further to the elite end of the spectrum by a small number of the participants. So you end up with where windsurfing or kayaking are - a boom and then a (maybe permanent) bust. SUP racing is heading along this trajectory at the moment - big growth, but the top guys want ever narrower boards...it won't end well.

With sailing in general and dinghy racing in particular - without taking people sailing (ideally more than once) there is little way they can decide if they are going to like it. It is such an abstract sport and so far removed from most people's experience - but it is worth sharing, rather than retreating into 'it's like that and that the way it is'. 


 


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