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Tacking in zone

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    Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by sundowner6959

The race was on an inland loch with the wind flicking through 30 degrees so whether B was fetching or on the layline is difficult to determine but I would assume he was above the layline.

If Y had not tacked below B but had been abreast and on the same starboard tack and on the layline within 2 boat lengths and the wind shifted 15 deg.(header) would Y not be entitled to shoot the mark with B giving room? 

You cannot assume anything. Whether the wind shifted or not would be a matter for the PC to determine in their 'facts found' as would whether or not B was (far enough) above the layline or not.

Breaking it down. Rule 18 'switches on' when Y reaches the zone at point 1. As they are on opposite tacks at this point Rule 18 does not apply (18.1a).

When Y tacks at point 3 they are not entitled to 'Mark Room' as the rules clearly state that 18.2 does not apply between them.

18.3a allows Y to sail above close hauled as long as they do not cause B to sail above close hauled or prevent them from rounding the mark. As there was contact between them it shows that something clearly went wrong. 

As Y also changed course to go above I believe Rule 15 applies.

So unless Y can prove that B was well above the layline and could have changed course to a close hauled course then the odds are definitely not in their favour but B is also not required to react to Y unless it is obvious they are not keeping clear. B may have assume Y would sail astern of her and tack.

Without a witness the case for Y does not look good. My gut feeling in this case is that most PCs would find in favour of B unless there is a witness involved.

The rules are stacked against latecomers at a windward mark on port, for a good reason IMO. 

So my advice is, if you are going to come in late on port make sure you have a gap to go in and if it doesn;t work you need to bail out (bail out protest later).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by JimC

Gosh Brass, you're interpreting 'prevent' very differently from me. I was thinking that it meant forcing the other boat the wrong side of the mark.

That's certainly the example the commentaries discuss with respect to 'prevent'.
 

OK.  What does anyone think about Diagram 2, where Y deliberately puts on a mark-trap?



Edited by Brass - 11 Apr 16 at 8:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by sundowner6959

If Y had not tacked below B but had been abreast and on the same starboard tack and on the layline within 2 boat lengths and the wind shifted 15 deg.(header) would Y not be entitled to shoot the mark with B giving room? 
Provided boats had been overlapped, not clear ahead/astern when the first of them reached three boatlengths from the mark

Absobleedinglutely.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by JimC

Gosh Brass, you're interpreting 'prevent' very differently from me. I was thinking that it meant forcing the other boat the wrong side of the mark.

That's certainly the example the commentaries discuss with respect to 'prevent'.
 

OK.  What does anyone think about Diagram 2, where Y deliberately puts on a mark-trap?


I would guess it is Rule 11 as Y is not preventing B from passing the mark on the correct side (so doesn't break 18.3) as B is well above the layline they could head up..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 3:31pm
Can B pass the mark without hitting Y?

How is that not 'preventing' B from passing the mark?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 5:03pm
Not sure what you mean...
I don't think we need the "prevent" clause in this situation since if Blue goes behind yellow she's entitled to mark room (18.3b), and if she goes in front of yellow and past close hauled then that's the first sentence of 18.3(a).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 6:38pm
I assume blue doesn't have to predict at point 4 that yellow will stay htw past the mark, and by stage 5 will need to go past close-hauled, so blue is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Meadowcroft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 9:05pm
This seems a pretty pointless and unrealistic example

In the starting position Y is downwind of B who is on the lay line. Apparently by pointing the boat head to wind after a tack Y gets its transom past the mark before B gets there.

It does not happen like this!

If it could happen Y tacked in the zone. I don't think she wants to be hanging about waiting for anyone else to turn up. B can easily sail over the top has physics has to make Y stop!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by JimC

Not sure what you mean... 

Can B pass the mark without hitting Y?

Isn't that Y preventing B from passing the mark?

Originally posted by JimC

 if she goes in front of yellow and past close hauled then that's the first sentence of 18.3(a). 

Yes, if it is possible for B to luff up past her close hauled course before she hits Y

 
Originally posted by JimC

I don't think we need the "prevent" clause in this situation since if Blue goes behind yellow she's entitled to mark room (18.3b), and 

Disagree.

If B bears away, she will be clear astern of Y.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Jon Meadowcroft

This seems a pretty pointless and unrealistic example

In the starting position Y is downwind of B who is on the lay line. Apparently by pointing the boat head to wind after a tack Y gets its transom past the mark before B gets there.

It does not happen like this!

If it could happen Y tacked in the zone. I don't think she wants to be hanging about waiting for anyone else to turn up. B can easily sail over the top has physics has to make Y stop!

We are discussing the operation of a rule.  Of course the example is contrived.  I'm trying to examine what happens at the boundaries of the rule.

I disagree that it couldn't happen in practice.

If Y had passed head to wind before reaching the zone, it would be a routine mark-trap, so all that is needed is for Y to misjudge her position with respect to the zone boundary when she tacks.

B has never been on the layline.  B is always well above the layline.

If B is on the layline, she's nearly always going to get the benefit of rule 18.3( a ) first sentence.
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