Embarrassed L2 Sailor

But it's not ONLY about sail area, is it! Waterline length, hull form, beam (aka righting moment), 'sailing' weight, prevailing conditions... the list goes on.

PY is, always has been and always will be an average.

Originally posted by transient Originally posted by Oli Transient, there are several factors that could affect a number.  It could be that laser 2 sailors are getting slower compared to everyone else due to either boat age diminishing the performance, or thee sailor age and their diminishing performance. It could also be boats have been moved on and the laser 2 is now in the hands of a majority of more novice sailors.  It's probably a combination of all of those but deciding how much each one affects the number is difficult.   Yes indeed, I heard a similar argument recently....but why is that relevant? I'm not interested in a "Boat age" based handicap, neither am I interested in a "boat crew demography" or a "boat maintenance"/ "availability of spares" based handicap. All I'm interested in is a potential "boat performance" handicap. Originally posted by Oli Are there less returns for the laser 2 now than in than in the past? When does the drop of in returns start? If there is a drop in returns numbers does this correlate to a drop in class event turnout?  Something perhaps pyg could look into and maybe already do is to see if and when returns numbers drop if there a certain ratio between that and the Nationals turnout for all classes when a py number moves?  If so they could cap it retaining the class best average handicap and not its just current performance. That leads on to other issues too though. Nailing the PY to a figure achieved at the boats peak sounds like a promising start. Surely, The PY should be based on the period of "best quality data" not on a subsequent period of "falling quality data".  If there have been no changes to the boat in 30 years then why alter the number?. (sorry to go on about this) If Physicists operated in this way where would science be? If they study the quality of a phenomena would they alter their view and say "but there are fewer scientists studying it now and they are poorer in quality so we've had to change the description in the text books"......not sensible.    EDIT: Mr WB, I still support a data driven system.

Originally posted by sargesail Originally posted by jeffers PY is, always has been and always will be an average. If the class is sailed by those of below average ability (for example some rotomoulded classes) then a more able sailor jumps in to one then the PY will look ridiculous. We had 2 guys who sailed Topaz's a few years ago. Now bear in mind in their younger days they were top end 470 sailors I think you can guess what happened....... Hence why local adjustment is recommended..... Really - it was considered necessary to adjust the handicap because the CSF of two sailors who were dropping into a class matching their reduced athletic ability.  Should have let them have the chocolates!

But, as Transient has found, winning because the handicap is a bit too kind is a little hollow. Just a fraction kind, and you can just about convince yourself that you and the boat are in perfect harmony, hence the better than normal results. I can, anyway!

We're never going to find an accurate comparison system when all the sailors creating the data are of differing abilities, on different bits of water.

We simply have to get Nick Craig to sail every class of boat, on the sea/lake/river, in F1/2/3/4/5/6 wind. Then we'll have an accurate datum to compare to.

Actually, it doesn't have to be a good sailor like Nick. You could use a crap sailor like me. So long as my meagre abilities stay the same, I could be employed to sail all these boats in all these venues, and the results would be equally useful.

If you can just arrange for my salary to be paid for 300 days of sailing, I'd happily solve the problem for you all.