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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 1:18pm
What would be hard to prove is that when you were behind, your proper course was lower than the boat in front, but once overlapped, it was suddenly higher, unless the wind drops and you need to fill your kite, provided the wind dropping has nothing to do with the dirty air from the boat in front, as Jeffers said.

But if the boat is overtaking from slightly below anyway, then I can't see what the problem would be. You aren't sailing above your proper course, therefore you have the rights, provided the other boat has room to keep clear. Has to be said that in that situation, it makes for more sense for the overtaking boat to go to windward if he can, if he can see that the other boat is sailing in a different mode, and so highly unlikely to luff. Chances are, if he has a kite up, he will be boat lengths away in seconds, so luffing would be a bad handicap race tactic.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 1:51pm
What happened, I went round first starboard rounding out to sea, (Wind ENE, land North, next mark dead downwind WSW.) He took a bit of a wider course so was further out to sea and fumbling the hoist, I held the lead having deliberated (I always tend to bear off and gybe deep 'inside' so the upwind boats go past before hoisting so I keep clean(er) air and I"m on starboard, he gybes later further out then starts sailing a higher course headed close to the coast and theoretically less tide, but definitely less wind and shifty.

Initially the wind was such that being sheeted in was faster, but as it veered back to Easterly it was better to sheet right out to clew first and run by the lee, he is now to leeward but climbing towards me almost line astern, then he took the decision to pass under rather than over probably seeing how my course was taking me, then the wind shifted again and buggered his kite. So we were now inches apart and he's pissing me off coming so close, he could easily have stayed out in the wind and just gone, or come high and cleared, but using my magnetic charisma as a means to try and attach himself then calling me windward boat, I realise these are new rules, but they're f**ked up so I called him the way it used to be, i.e you needed to get your nose ahead before luffing and pumped my ass out of there.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I realise these are new rules, but they're f**ked up so I called him the way it used to be, i.e you needed to get your nose ahead before luffing and pumped my ass out of there.


Not very new rules. My 1989 copy of the rules has very much the same thing: "38.2a a leeward yacht shall not sail above her proper course while an overlap exists...."

The old luffing rights rules were about when you *were* allowed to sail above your proper course, which doesn't seem to be what this is about: he wasn't luffing, he was sailing his proper course.

Edited by JimC - 05 Sep 14 at 2:16pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by GybeFunny

Of course. I just looked at the rules and it seems it would also apply in class racing, if say one Fireball liked to sail the angles on a run and another preferred to dead run and minimise gybes. Of course in that situation it becomes trickier to prove what your proper course would be seeing as people may expect that all boats of the same class would have the same proper course.

The leeward boat is not usually expected to 'prove' what her proper course was, as long as she gives a plausible or convincing explanation of what it was or why she was not sailing above it.

Case 14 is relevant to a degree

CASE 14
When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course,
two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear.
Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper
courses.

Originally posted by Rupert

What would be hard to prove is that when you were behind, your proper course was lower than the boat in front, 

Your course, or your proper course before you become overlapped is irrelevant.  Rule 17 refers to a boat's proper course while the boats are overlapped.

There's nothing in the rules to prevent a boat, initially clear astern, and perhaps sailing a little below her proper course, from diving down to leeward of a boat ahead and then coming up to her proper course.

Originally posted by Rupert

 but once overlapped, it was suddenly higher, unless the wind drops and you need to fill your kite, provided the wind dropping has nothing to do with the dirty air from the boat in front, as Jeffers said. 

Quite right.

Originally posted by Rupert

 But if the boat is overtaking from slightly below anyway, then I can't see what the problem would be. You aren't sailing above your proper course, therefore you have the rights, provided the other boat has room to keep clear. 

Room to keep clear won't usually be an issue for a boat coming from astern on a converging overlapped course:  There will initially, normally, be plenty of room at the time the boats become overlapped, so rule 15 should not be a problem, and, she would be expected to keep a steady course, so rule 16 will never come on.


Originally posted by Rupert

 Has to be said that in that situation, it makes for more sense for the overtaking boat to go to windward if he can, if he can see that the other boat is sailing in a different mode, and so highly unlikely to luff. 

That's a huge 'if'.

In club racing, especially where people are still talking about 'luffing rights', which, remember, used to exist to enable a boat being overtaken to windward to 'defend her wind', I would expect a leeward boat being overtaken to stick it to the windward boat, no matter how bad that would be for both their results.  Conversely, I would usually think the polite thing for a faster boat with spinnaker set would be to go below, despite that not being helpful for a boat going downwind by the lee.

Originally posted by Rupert

 Chances are, if he has a kite up, he will be boat lengths away in seconds, so luffing would be a bad handicap race tactic.

Yeah, but if I see a kite boat rolling over the top of me when I've got all white sails up, maybe I just couldn't resist the temptation <g>.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 3:16pm
This wasn't a 'luffing' scenario, this is a blind deaf man not knowing where he should be going next, in a symmetric boat sailing high in crap air he should have just hoisted his kite and sailed straight at the mark, we would never have come even close. So even though no 'luffing rights' exist it's ok for someone to come under you from behind then deliberately move toward you away from the correct direction to the mark and call you higher? And that's not f**ked up?

Later I had another 'twat' in an RS400, luffing me down the 2nd reach which was a bit tighter having dropped his kite, two things he's trying to achieve, obviously 1 not letting me by, but two not allowing me an overlap for water at the bottom mark. I hate being in a slower boat. He's also luffing with a tide on his lee bow lifting him up potentially losing us both ground.

I assume then that I could have called him to sail a proper course and not 'luff'?

Edited by iGRF - 05 Sep 14 at 3:19pm
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